The Cops Who Stay on the Job
Preparing to survive in a post-SHTF world is challenging. More than anything, we have to realize that we’re preparing blind. We don’t know what sort of disaster we’re facing or what the post-disaster world is going to look like. With those two pieces of information missing, it’s hard to know exactly how people will react and what they will do. Therefore, we must prepare for the worst.
There is a wide-ranging assumption that public servants will abandon their posts. I would have to say that this assumption is totally unfair. We live in a hurricane zone and my wife is a city employee. She and her co-workers are required to agree that they will stay on the job, protecting the citizens of the city and keeping city services running, both during and after a hurricane. While a few might abandon their posts if things get bad enough, most seem to be people who will follow through on that requirement.
But what about a worst-case scenario? What about in the wake of an EMP or other grid-destroying event, which would result in a true breakdown of society and the banking system; a situation where they would no longer be paid to do their jobs?
That’s a difficult question. For some, like my wife, their positions probably wouldn’t exist anymore. But the real issue here is emergency workers and law enforcement officers. We would greatly need their services in the wake of such a serious disaster. Would they stay on the job or would they feel they had to abandon their posts to care for their families?
There’s really no way of knowing the answer to that question until the time comes. It is a very individual question, so I imagine that some will stay, while others leave. Whether they stay or leave will largely determine whether they are friend or foe.
Related: 50 High Value Items To Stockpile For When SHTF
Police officers tend to be highly disciplined individuals, much like soldiers. In fact, many start out as soldiers, then move to law enforcement when they get out of the military. As such, they are largely people with a high regard for the law. Oh, there are the few bad apples; but despite stories saying otherwise, there aren’t many of them.
Those who stay on the job will be concerned with maintaining law and order in the worst of circumstances. They will also be subject to the politicians who are still in place over them. This means that if those politicians declare martial law, they will most likely enforce martial law, unless they believe that to be an unlawful order.
This could get sticky. As we saw during Hurricane Katrina, declaring martial law would probably mean they would be confiscating guns as well. That would put the police in the position of appearing to be the enemy in the eyes of any Second Amendment supporter. Whether or not they actually became an enemy would depend on how you, I and other gun owners would react to them. If we use force to reject their orders to turn over our guns, they will use force in response. That makes them our de-facto enemies.
Related: 25 Things We Did as Kids That Would Get Someone Arrested Today
Some police officers may choose to abandon their posts, especially if they feel that their families are in danger. In that case, the question is what they will do to protect and care for their families. While there are very few bad cops out there, there is always the possibility that a cop will turn bad in such circumstances, out of desperation to take care of their families.
These people will be dangerous, because they will be able to present themselves to the public as law-enforcement officers, when in fact they are acting like criminals. There could even be some cases in smaller communities, where the police take over, much as warlords take over in times of anarchy. Should that happen, the police in question would be extremely dangerous.
It would be our duty, in such a case, to stand up against the police. But here’s the problem. How do you tell if what they are doing is in the public interest, or just in self-interest? If they are acting in the public interest, our duty is to support them, so we need to be sure they are the enemy, before treating them as such.
Related: How To Tell When People Are Lying to You (in a crisis)
If military forces are called out to help gain control, it will be the National Guard, not the active military. US law prohibits the use of US military forces within the borders of the United States. Even if politicians in high places wanted to use the regular Army, it is doubtful that Army officers, all of whom know that prohibition in the law, would allow it.
But state Governors can call out the National Guard to help law enforcement in maintaining law and order. It’s not unusual for this to happen in the case of natural disasters. I would say that we should expect it to happen in a true SHTF scenario.
National Guard forces are US Army reserve soldiers and formations, which are “owned” by the governors of the several states. They serve a dual role, both as state owned military forces and reserves for the federal forces. If called out in a disaster situation, they could serve either to support law-enforcement or to provide disaster relief. In either case, they would be armed.
Should martial law be declared, it is highly likely that the National Guard would be called out. If guns are confiscated, they are the ones who would most likely do the confiscation. They would probably be as polite as possible about it; but if they decided to obey that order, they would do their best to fulfill it.
However, the National Guard, like other military forces, is made up of predominantly conservatives. There’s a very good chance that they would refuse an order to disarm the population. Military officers swear an oath to uphold the Constitution and they would likely see the disarm order as a clear violation of the Second Amendment. As such, it would be their duty to refuse that order.
Related: Firearms for Emergency and SHTF Situations
Of all these options, UN troops is the most dangerous. Any decision to use UN troops would have to be made at the federal government level. Were such a decision to be made, the troops which would be brought in to help maintain civil order would not be American troops. They would be unfamiliar with our culture (other than what they had seen in movies) and unfamiliar with our laws.
To these troops, a firearm confiscation order would seem perfectly reasonable, especially when you consider that they would probably come from a country where they don’t enjoy our Second Amendment protections. There would be no appeal to them on the grounds of our Constitution.
Should this happen, refusing an order to turn over your guns would be dangerous. The only thing that would protect any of us is the fact that there is no federal gun registration. Even so, there are states which require a permit to own guns, as well as concealed carry licenses which many of us have. That would give them a starting point for where to look.
Getting into a battle with armed troops is foolish. In such a situation, the only practical recourse is to hide all your guns where they won’t be able to find them, with the exception of a few, which you could then allow them to confiscate, making them think you’ve obeyed the order.
Regardless of the specific situation we would end up encountering, chances are that any police or military forces which were still in operation, would be there as part of whatever government managed to survive. Unless such forces decide to go rogue, we can count on them being there to help.
That doesn’t mean they’ll be our friends though. Unless you know them personally, they will look on you with suspicion, just like they will everyone else. Anyone carrying a weapon openly will be suspect. That doesn’t mean that they’ll hassle you, take away your weapons, fire upon you or arrest you; it just means that they will be watching to make sure that you aren’t a problem that they need to deal with.
The best thing you and I will be able to do in such a situation is to keep ourselves below the radar, so that we aren’t noticed. If we are not noticed, hopefully we will be left alone.
Should orders go out to confiscate any supplies that are stockpiled, it would probably be a good time to put our bug out plans into effect. Hopefully, we’ll all have a cache of supplies elsewhere, so that when we lose the supplies that we have stockpiled at home, we’ll still be okay.
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“This could get sticky. As we saw during Hurricane Katrina, declaring martial law would probably mean they would be confiscating guns as well. That would put the police in the position of appearing to be the enemy in the eyes of any Second Amendment supporter. Whether or not they actually became an enemy would depend on how you, I and other gun owners would react to them. If we use force to reject their orders to turn over our guns, they will use force in response. That makes them our de-facto enemies.”
situations like dire SHTFs where a gun can make the difference in life or death leaves the 2A Rights argument mired in the muck >>> IT”S JUST COMMON SENSE !!!!
The question of who side will the Police and Military chose in a SHTF scenario is a valid one. It depends on if they are loyal to their oath to ‘protect the Constitution against enemies bot foreign AND DOMESTIC”. The job being to protect the “Constitution” (aka: the government) , not the people (aka: YOU). The deployment of the Nat. Guard will be problematic. Will they be willing to fire on their families and friends ? Then question of UN troops being sent in WILL result in an armed insurrection to resist a foreign invasion and government that has become a modern version of the Vichy France in World War II. If you think the police are there to protect you,you had better check the facts. Their job is to enforce “law and ORDER”(as defined by the local, state, and Fed. Government.)
What does YOUR reply have to do with MY comment???
if you want to comment >>> comment
The Constitution is NOT the government. The Constitution protects us FROM the government.
Necro: And liberals call it a 3rd world, living document that can be interpreted like imams interpret the koran, any way they want to.Hitler did that to Germany when elected. niio
It might be that they will be there to “enforce the law” as they see fit. There is nothing like a cowboy cop to ruin your day.
I believe that any order by any entity that allows anyone to “confiscate” any type of private property be it a car, boat, airplane, firearm, food, land, house to be illegal and immoral. I would not subject myself to any such orders. I am positive that would not end well for me but I have not served this country and my fellow citizens to have a crackpot on a power trip try to pull anything like this in the name of martial law or anything else. I have nothing at all against local cops or anyone else for that matter but any intelligent individual would have to look at any such order as being illegal or immoral. I do not care that the courts may say a politician has that “right” it does make it so.
another one – YOUR reply has nothing to do with my comment >>> if you don’t know to comment someone can explain it
Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, Illini?
Sort of peevish today.
Illini squaw. You may think that you are the center of the universe but in reality you’re just another brick in the wall. Just because a comment is posted here it doesn’t necessarily imply that the comment was directed at you and or your post. It’s a free blog. We can post what we want whenever we want without prior permission from you. Understand?
Check out EO 13603 from Obama when he was in office.
Not sure if president Trump has rescinded it or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13603
According to this, it’s still in effect, but it sounds pretty benign in this article.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13603
Sorry to offend your left leanings…..
Consco: Illiini is about as far left as John Wayne or LLC–Zero to none. We all have bad hair days, as women can tell you (unfortunately, most can’t just go out and shoot something, so we’re stuck with..never mind 🙂 Advice to Illini from my grandmother, take the shotgun out back, a glass, and bottle of Catawba and all your anger melts away. Yes, she had very polite neighbors. they all followed her advise.She raised 6 hellion teenage boys to manhood, saw them all go in the Army from WWII to Vietnam, and lost one at Normandy, another in a mining accident. She wore out her share of shotguns. niio
Lets hope we never see another situation like what happened during Katrina again.
As far as gun confiscations go, “I lost all my guns in a boating accident”
Funny, so did I.
Wow! I had the same thing happen. I was moving and hauling my stuff over to an island in the McKenzie River. It was salmon season so I was trolling on my way over to the little island. I had all of my guns in the boat and sure as hell, I hooked onto what I think was a monster Chinook. He/she was pulling like a freight train. I made the mistake of raising a leg, bracing it on top of the gunnel, leaning way over trying to haul in that fish…and my pushing down on that gunnel combined with my weight shifting over the edge caused the boat, its contents (my guns) and me flipping over, going a__ over appetite including all of my guns, including my lunch, fire extinguisher and a nice coat. Not fun. And I got really cold throughout all of this but thankfully, another boater spotted me wrestling that Chinook.
You can tell them that, but it wont work.. after they destroy your home looking for them and take what ever they want. Then they may believe you.
It will work if you hide the 2 or 3 you must have and give up the 6 or 8 you can live without.
NEVER!
Good post. Hiding in plain sight usually means being overlooked by others. How many criminals do that and never get caught.
We picked up several sliced hams on sale. the cut parts can be dehydrated and the rise cooked. bought ten lbs of fat, as well, which is going in sausages and some to be salted. the ham-flavoring packages are mostly sugars, and store for years. By Easter, ham and turkey will be cheap. We don’t eat the breast, but put it in sausage. Both meats make good sausage. As the kids can tell you, I’m cheap, but not easy 🙂 niio
I understand them taking guns during Hurricane Katrina, trash in that part of NO were shooting at rescue helicopters. Some NG troops refused to take arms except from the scummy people. It will depend on where and the type of people that live there. Expect it in the “hood” in my neighborhood I really do not believe the police will even attempt this. We will be standing with them
The cows may come and the cows may go, but the bull**** goes on forever. A quick on-line search on the story of rescue helicopters being fired on in the wake of Katrina turned up the following: “Like many early horror stories about ultra-violent New Orleans natives, whether in their home city or in far-flung temporary shelters, the A.P. article turned out to be false. Evacuation from the city of New Orleans was never “halted,” according to officials from the Coast Guard, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), and the Louisiana National Guard.”
Taking the guns of everyone when only some were reportedly “shooting at helicopters” is akin to keeping the whole class after school because little Tommy threw spitballs during class.
I didn’t read any report of any helicopters being hit with small arms fire. Maybe there were, but it went unreported. I have the feeling had there been such, it would have made the six o’clock news complete with breathless interviews by all the leading “reporters”
The Constitution doesn’t allow for punishing people because they might commit a crime. Remember the phrase “innocent until proven guilty”? Seizing firearms of people who are poor just because they live in the only s _ _ _ _y neighborhood they can afford is a violation of their Constitutional rights, and by extension, yours.
Remember the saying from WWII, “First they came for the communists. I wasn’t a communist so I didn’t say anything. Then they came for the Jews. I wasn’t a Jew, so I didn’t say anything. Then they came for the mentally disabled. I wasn’t mentally disabled, so I didn’t say anything. Then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything.’?
Be careful you are not the only one left when they come for you.
LLC: Good post, very good. But, remember socialists. In N. Korea, if one person is caught with a cross, the whole apartment house is under arrest. That’s the attitude Trump is dealing with from the congressional clowns. He might be guilty so he must be guilty.
After hearing Niemöller’s poem, Bonhoeffer was one of the first ministers to die in the death camps. He had a lot of company, most of them only accused of crimes against the socialists, but were executed on suspicion. niio
If the SHTF just be sure you are not in front of the fan.
“declaring martial law would probably mean they would be confiscating guns.” And who’s to say the next disaster couldn’t be created, just for this purpose? I don’t trust anything these days. I wouldn’t use weapons against them, but they wouldn’t get my weapons either.
True! Never let a good disaster go to waste, dems say. This newest plague may be only hot air, about like the flu, but socialists are using it to shut down travel and control people. niio
TRUST NO-ONE. Verify all. Never turn your back on the armed person.
BE SMART, dumbasses will be gone first.
Less is more. Talking.
During the best of times I don’t trust the police to have my best interest in heart. In a SHTF world I won’t turn my back on one. I know cops have a job to do, but that’s just it, IT’S A JOB. It is not that I have a problem with authority, it’s just that I don’t give any value to someones title as a measure of their worth to me. It’s still a free country to do as I choose at the moment. As soon as it’s not, I’ll still do as I choose any damn way.
Exactly! Cops are just as flawed as other humans.
The ones that we hear about, that abuse their positions, are dangerous because they literally have a license to kill and will take advantage of a shtf situation because they can.
Otoh, there are cops who risk their own lives to rescue a dog fallen through thin ice, or who band together to raise money for a sick child’s medical treatment.
Certainly, I would hide my favorite weapons and extra ammo in a secure place, leaving only a couple “bait” guns… cheap, broken bait. That’s common sense, and keeps your arms from getting stolen for real if you’re the victim of a break-in.
You have to wonder though… so many news stories center on police abuses. Is there maybe an agenda here, to get people to hate and mistrust the police even more than they already do? Or is police abuse and corruption endemic now?
Cops can be more flawed, or less. It depends on where they start out at. many have a Tarzan attitude of godhood, but then many are real heroes, as well. having family in police work, I can tell you what they told me, never volunteer anything. Try to not lie because they take training to detect a liar. Do not resist arrest because I’ll pound you for it, kid, and then your folks will, too. 🙂
Remember Kim, the story? When they stopped at a village and priest drugged the monk to rob him, next day, a retired soldier accompanied them to the main road. He told them, Thieves are terrible. they steal what they can, then the police come and steal everything. I’ve seen it happen. Cops were on the payroll of two crooked judges, hauling in teens and preteens. Some refused, but they there were the minority. I hate to say it, but police are never better than the politicians who boss them. niio
You didn’t say a thing about the thousands of foreign troops within the borders of the U.S.! My take on this is that they move in when the N.G. will not turn their guns on citizens – no questions!
I have had close contact with various police officers throughout my life. Even an uncle was a lifetime cop with the NYPD. While it is true that some of them have become police officers because they want to help, unfortunately, too many of them either have a mas macho attitude before they join or develop it after they join.
I was having a conversation with a cop about searching for drugs. Now up to the point of this conversation, I would have sworn that he was a righteous cop who observed the letter of the law. However, he indicated to me in our conversation that it was all right to lie to establish probable cause for a search. I was aghast. He would have been the last law enforcement officer I would have suspected of believing that lying to establish p.c. was all right. I know from having heard the script numerous times in court that most officers lie about what facts led to p.c. for the search and they also lie about the manner in which search warrants are served. They lie in obtaining search warrants and judges don’t call them on the lies. If a particular judge were to challenge the “facts” recited in the application for search warrant, no officers would go to him to obtain a warrant after that. Judge shopping is done by both sides.
I had a conversation with another officer about preparing for an emergency situation. He told me that he had all the preps he needed, patting his sidearm.
Just a couple of examples from my long association with a wide variety of law enforcement officers. Please notice the difference. They were originally described as peace officers. Now they are almost universally described as law enforcement officers.
In my view, anybody wearing a uniform is to be considered an enemy until he establishes himself otherwise. Anyone portraying themselves as being an “official” is to be viewed as an enemy until proven otherwise — heck, I view them that way now and it isn’t an EOTW situation, at least I don’t think it is.
As an addendum to this, we used to joke about the reasons for probable cause, that we should draw up a worksheet and instead of preparing a transcript, we could just check the blocks for the officer’s testimony. One would have hoped that someone would come up with a different script at some point, but alas, apparently imagination doesn’t run strong in l.e.o. circles.
My long term experience working directly with law enforcement has made my opinion nearly identical Chuck. I will go so far as to say the vast majority are little more than bullies and liars.
Jake: Yes, when the state and local government is, then the police reflect that. Remember the case in Penna, when one state trooper was killed and another had his dick shot off? the cop was forcing a woman to have sex with him, threatening her family. Her brother took care of her problem. Kids for Cash, PA, again, every cop in Luzerne County was under suspiccion because they were the ones dragging kids off the street for little reason to the dem judges, who were selling them to juvie halls. Cops like military anything are only as good as the people in control. in liberal states like Kali, that means greedy trash own the people. niio
Regular Army troops have been deployed in the US: 1932- ww1 ‘bonus army’ cleared out by Gen. MacArthur communing regular army. 1957- Pres. Eisenhower sent in the army to assist with integration of the Little Rock, AK schools.
In addition, the President has the authority to nationalize state national guards. This includes: 1965, Pres. Johnson- the Selma Alabama march. 1970- Pres. Nixon – NYC mail strike. 2010- Pres. Obama- US-Mexico border.
So to say than in a nation-wide SHTF situation, regular Army troops, won’t be on our streets is probably inaccurate.
Yes, ever since the states started taking federal money to bolster their Guard budgets they have been beholden to the feds. Any time you take money from somebody there are strings attached. There is no question in my mind that were we to experience anything like a massive CME or HEMP or even something like a massive epidemic, we would see U.S. troops in the streets — those that would respond to the call to duty. Most who were living off base would fail to report to protect their families. However, it is my opinion that the way the government would act would be to promise to provide food, shelter and medical care to dependents and then hold them hostage once they had them in custody on board military bases to compel the troops to act counter to their instincts. See my comments about not trusting the government above.
The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits Federal military from performing law enforcement actions, but there are provisions that allow this via the Insurrection Act, where in times of insurrection, domestic violence, or conspiracy or a combination where local or state officials are unable or unwilling to enforce the laws (Little Rock integration being an example of the unwilling part).
So generally speaking, if we are in a SHTF situation, this is likely to mean that local and state law enforcement will be overwhelmed and the US military will be brought in to aid in restoring order and law.
Personally, I don’t see UN forces as being likely if for no other reason than if we are having such problems, most likely it will be affecting large parts of the rest of the world and those troops will be deployed within their own countries rather than be shipped to ours
“Personally, I don’t see UN forces as being likely if for no other reason than if we are having such problems, most likely it will be affecting large parts of the rest of the world and those troops will be deployed within their own countries rather than be shipped to ours”
2008-2016 >>> if there would have been need for nationalization of the NG and military call up to handle domestic unrest >>> there would have been problems in general and likely refusal to orders …
that president without any doubt would have requested Blue Helmets into the country to back his play >>> NO DOUBTS <<<<
It’s not as simple as a president requesting UN troops and they turn up. There needs to be a Security Council resolution, and there are a couple of countries there with a veto power that aren’t likely to approve a coup in the USA. That’s if a resolution ever got written, which it won’t, because this would basically be a US president asking for the whole world to help him launch a coup. Then, even if a UN peacekeeping mission is approved, which it won’t be, where are the troops going to come from? What UN members with any forces worth speaking of are going to risk them in the USA? None. They’d just have said “Hey Barack, you got plenty troops of your own. Use them.”
Cops work for politicians. They are not and never have been on the side of “We the People”. Cops will do what ever their politician masters tell them to do. To think they actually believe in their “Oath of Office” is silly.
Anyone who has taken a Criminal Justice course learns the the first and only job of Law Enforcement is “Order Maintaince” It is not to protect the public or property. The US Supreme Court ruled over a decade ago that Law Enforcement is not legaly required to portect the public.
The ruling was that the police are not required to prevent crime but to investigate it. They cannot be everywhere at all times. If cops do not want to protect the public then why are so many gun sancturary counties in Virginia being declared by elected sheriffs. The sheriff’s dept in my county does theirs best to protect, ie the time someone mistook the air nailers being used to reroof my house as automatics weapons fire and the deputy shows up ready to call backup. Or when I informed them that a neighborhood kids was riding his go cart on the street carelessly and endangering himself and others and they had a chat with the kids and his parents. No ticket just a discussion as to why it was illegal to do so for both the protection of the child and the drivers the that might hit him. Depends on where you live and your attitude.
Here, Arizona, most sheriffs like and encourage the open-carry policy. Give respect and the police usually respect you, but always, they reflect the attitude of the ones who boss them, politicians. It’s so bad in places like Penna, bad cops don’t last long. niio
Valid, informative. Let’s hope no liberal is in power then. Duplicate anything that might be vital and could be confiscated. find places to bury it. Take every precaution and never mention what you’ve done to others. While I Back the police 100%, neither do I go around yammering at them. Even right now, anything you say will be used against you. That advise comes from family members who are in the police and in military.The basic assumption always is, we’re all guilty of something. niio
Red: There is a book entitled “Three Felonies A Day.” in it the author describes how federal prosecutors brag that they can convict anyone of at least three felonies for every day they live. He then goes on to describe some infamous trials of people who have been put through the federal prosecution wringer. I don’t think he talked about it in his book, but I remember the Chinese PhD who was prosecuted for security breaches. The judge reamed out the federal prosecutor from the bench. Let me tell you, in 25 years of working in court I have never seen a judge ream out a prosecutor. Non-government lawyer, sure, but never, ever a prosecutor. If they are having a problem with a particular prosecutor they will call that individual into chambers and maybe chew him out there. Typically what happens is the judge calls the DA and fills in the DA with what the prosecutor is doing and the next day the prosecutor stands up in court and apologizes to the judge but a federal deputy attorney general in open court and on the record?
Anyway, the Chinese doctor wound up after years of living on edge pleading to a very low grade misdemeanor with no time served and a minor fine to make all the accusations go away, rather than risk going to trial, a possible conviction and endless appeals before being acquitted. That’s where they getcha. Going to trial costs so much money, even if you qualify for the public defender, you have to pay off their fees unless you are destitute. And the PD only takes you through the trial. It is rare for them to handle an appeal.
Chuck- show me the person, I’ll show you the crime. It just happened to our President.
Justme: You sound like a deputy U.S. attorney. I’ve read somewhere that the U.S. regulations having to do with cabbage run to some ungodly number of volumes. How anyone could have that much to say about cabbage is beyond me, so what I read can’t possibly be correct, right?
Socialist; it doesn’t matter if you’re guilty or not, as long as they claim you are. Ma Richards, former gov of Texas/wicked witch of Texas, put a lot of people in prison because of suspicion. Thanks to her gross miscarriage of justice, W won all rednecks, of all races, by a landslide. Beto in Texas was slated to win, but someone brought up Richards and he lost. The dems gave us the KKK, alt-right, and lynch mobs. The Constitution to them is a living, 3rd world document to be used as toilet paper at any given moment. You live in Kali/Naziville. You have a deeper understanding than most want to learn.
2 Repubs in democrat Penna were winning votes. All it took was a suspicion, and that a lie, that they were corrupt, and the Clinton FBI came in like the a-bomb. It took over a year, both men were devastated, ruined, but talked and were back in politics. 6 months later, the dems did it again. This time, the two had to borrow money to pay lawyers fees. But, as well, agents were scared. People were coming up to them on the streets and hugging them, pleading for help to get their children out of the kids for cash scam set up by 2 dem judges. W got elected and now, finally, the FBI had permission to go after dem politicos. Right after the judges were arrested, the dems in Harrisburg passed a rule they couldn’t sued by victims. 2,000 kids were freed, some of them had been sold as far away as Colorado. One kid committed suicide, but mine rats are tough. Most bore with the rapes and shame of being owned by dem prisons. None of the judges’ families are still in PA because mine rats are revenge-minded. Lawyers, cops, politicians slid out of sight and many relocated. As far as Philly and Jersey, FBI made arrests. The Native American who let the cat out of the bag, a journalist blackmailing the dems, committed suicide to keep his kids from being beaten or kidnapped. My entire point on all this, is, socialist will do as they want, no matter the law. niio
The point is almost irrelevant. In a true SHTF situation, most cops and reservists will take off to protect their own family….just like in Katrina.
Total US active army and marines is around 650,000. Total combat ready (not in support role) is less than 1/3 of that…say 200,000. Assume ALL of them stay on duty, divide by 50 States and you get 4,000 per State. No way in the world could that few do much. A fraction of a percent in uniform simply could not handle an armed civilian population in extra ordinary times. Not possible.
And UN troops might be more inclined not to desert in a foreign country, but imagine how long the supply line is between here and where they came from….again, not possible except in a very limited scale outside normal times.
Most likely those that don’t desert will hold up on military bases and cover themselves, with perhaps a few trips to forage…..let’s face it, military bases are nearly as subject to Just-in-time delivery of food, fuel, etc, as the rest of the world. You can’t run a armed force without supplies.
No doubt some would turn into rouge bands of raiders, but for the most part, you’ll would never see or hear from them is my guess.
Your neighbor, Bubba, with a rusty 30-30, half a box of shells and a hungry family is going to be much more of a concern than anyone in uniform. Bubba will try to kill you.
I don’t know. Cops in cities tend to group in one ‘hood. They also like family to be prepared and most are preppers. While anarchy will rule for days or weeks, many good people in cities are buying guns and ammo, and hiding them. A lot of cops ignore that, especially in bad ‘hoods. City preppers are not going to allow their homes to burn or be taken by gangs. If anyone is forced to stay in a city, watch the population of stray pets, birds and rats. When their population flattens to nothing, then worry.
Here, we watch the cops’ backs. With Tucson 40 miles down the road, they’re happy to have us. People in South Tucson are always calling up about crimes they saw because that’s where most of the mojados (wetbacks) hide. In the event of a shutdown, most, I think will try to keep order. Most of the men here are military or ex-, and armed and ready. Prepping is becoming a way of life. But then, with Native Americans, it always was. Now Hispanics are getting into it, as well. In ST, the first to go will be gangs. With no liberals alive to stop them, the regular folk will burn them out. That means they scatter. But, with all the small towns on the way, we might or might not see any after a while. Like they say in Mexico about dead drug lords and their soldiers, Ai, the poor coyote, he has to eat, too. Mexico is arming for war against the PRI (sister party to the DNC).
As I recall, UN troops in Africa and so on abandoned their posts when trouble came. Most of their problems came from prostituting small children and ignoring murders.
Military bases are always prime for attack. Circle the wagons and the Indians will come 🙂 And all too often, win. Deserters will be more of a problem than gangs.
Our Bubba can’t shoot. In fact, while he loves to hunt mice, squirrels and cats, his bark is worse than his bite. Right now he’s worshiping the kitchen god, the stove, hoping the door will pen and the meatloaf fall out. He has a dream, some day he’ll chase down a rabbit and eat it, but his legs are only 4 inches long, so he chases them out of the brush and the gun catches them for him. He is pretty good about intruders. In fact, when my stepson tried to correct Bubba, the kid said it was like putting his hand through a sewing machine on meth. Friendly, easy to like, fun to hang with, hunt with, appetite like a teenager, as territorial as a t-rex, and able to back it up. Yeah, I named him for the kid 🙂 niio
Dunno where in AZ you are but our state is a soft police state, too many damn psychos pumped up on roids with guns who wipe themselves with the Constitution.
Second, until the Gestapo blue line is subjected to the UCMJ, they will never be honorable.
South central, in Pinal Co. if you think its bad now, you should have lived here when the dems were running the state. Police reflect local leaders. Locals usually reflect state. If you’re worried about bad cops, then make sure you have a camera mounted somewhere in your truck cab or car.
When living in the soviet socialist state of Penna, I had to. I was going to pow wows and at each one, the cops were ordered to take down licence plate numbers and names. Life got so bad, when the FBI moved into the county to investigate two politicians for corruption, people scared the hell out of. they’d walk to an agent on the street and beg for help against little scams like kids for cash, where politicians were selling their children to out of state juvenile halls. Cannot remember the man’s name, but if you heard about it, a state trooper forced a married woman to have sex with him multiple times threatening to destroy her family. His partner stood watch. When she finally was able to tell her husband, he tried to stop it and they laughed him out of the room. Her brother, a marksman, waited in the brush by the barracks. The rapist he killed, the other he shot his dick off. Cops in the family said Hoo-rah!
And, while in normal circumstances, the shooter would have gotten the chair, when that news came out, people demanded he be acquitted. He’s doing life, no parole.
I could go on for hours about the east/beast coast. If I got to Tucson, no nothing about injuns on the vehicle, not even a feather. Up here, most are Native American and do not tolerate dirty cops. do I trust cops? Not on your life. I know too many and was told by cops in the family to never trust one. Cops said that. Respect them? Yes. Support them? Yep and they know it, and support me. niio
First of all I thought the regular army was mobilized for Katrina. 2nd sad to say some New Orleans police did abandon their post. It was an ugly mess and sad to say some have never been found
U.N. troops are not deployed to fight, they are targets, a line not to be crossed, and the bad guys know if they attack them somebody might decide to deploy real soldiers.
Read up on the Watts riot of 1965 to see how our Government responds when challenged.
The Gov has been curtailing our freedom, our rights, since the War on Drugs started under Nixon. Right now, not including designated high intensity drug traffic enforcement zones, there are 120,000 square miles of America in which we have no 4th Amendment protection. If you don’t believe this try saying no to CBP, La Migra, when they decide they don’t like your looks.
And then Cheney and his boys pushed The Patriot Act right to the boundaries of the Constitution.
We have more freedom than any other people, but when the Government is threatened the 1st thing they do is start taking freedom away.
Mike: Actually the war on drugs got underway simultaneously with the war on alcohol. Harry Anslinger from the FBI was made Drug Czar in 1930 just three years before prohibition ended. The first laws regarding drug usage were passed in the 19th century. The PDRK passed a law against cannabis usage sometime in the first decade of the 20th century. Once again Kallyforniya led the way in interfering in people’s rights. Unlike several recent presidents, I have never used illegal drugs. From my vantage point in court I have seen how drugs and alcohol have ruined lives and families. That said, I think what you do in the privacy of your home, as long as it doesn’t interfere with my rights as a citizen is your business and not mine. I don’t want you operating on me if you have toked up recently and are under the influence just as I don’t want you operating on me if you are like the orthopedic surgeon in our county who was stopped a couple of blocks from the hospital where he had just done a laminectomy and fusion and blew well over .25. Only a dedicated drinker can still function at that level.. Folks who were in the O.R. with him testified he didn’t appear unusual.
“Doc, we never knew you drank until you came to work sober one day.”
I have watched more and more substances become proscribed. I have watched buckets of money wasted on “programs” to cure addiction and alcoholism. I firmly believe that the war on drugs has caused the corruption that exists in our police departments. I am talking not only about taking bribes or stealing drugs but the corruption of lying in order to justify police action which I hold to be just as pernicious as taking bribes or stealing drugs. It makes the cops no better than the crooks.
It certainly has resulted in the Supremes noting to do away with our rights with regard to property via The United States vs. one 1974 Cadillac. With regard to no-knock entries. With regard to giving up the right against searches of your person, residence or vehicle at any time by any law enforcement official if on probation or parole. The list of violations that would shock our Founding Fathers is quite extensive.
In court one day I noticed the deputy public defender and his client having a heated argument. After the prison chasers took his client back to jail for lunch I asked the DPD what his client’s beef was. He told me he was having a hard time convincing his client that it would not help his case any for his client to get on the stand and testify that the cops were lying. He didn’t have 20 bindles of heroin on him, he had 50 and the cops stole the other 30. While the cops had indeed perjured themselves by testifying to 20 bindles instead of the actual count, they could do it with impunity because A. the defendant couldn’t testify to how many he actually had as it would be a judicial admission, the same as pleading guilty. B. Who believes a drug dealer anyway? He would have to file a complaint against the cops with the cops and expect that his complaint would receive a fair hearing. One would have to be really brain dead to believe that the beef from a drug dealer would receive any kind of welcoming reception from the police department.
What did the narcotic cops do with the other 30 bindles? Your guess is as good as mine. Supply them to some of their informants to keep them happy? Sell them to garner a little extra cash for when they retired? Use them to plant as evidence on someone they “knew” was dealing but couldn’t catch under the unfair rules the Supreme Court had laid down? Or all of the above and more? I don’t know how good the dope was that the dealer had but we are talking about a couple of hundred dollars at a minimum for 30 bindles. It wasn’t as if we were putting “Mr. Big” away. The defendant was a small time dealer who dealt so he could afford his habit. The only time we ever had a “Mr. Big” in court the jury hung for acquittal because they didn’t like the snitch. Didn’t like the snitch? Nobody likes the snitch. Even the snitch doesn’t like what he is doing because he realizes he has just burned his bridges in the drug community and won’t be able to keep up his habit but will have to move.
For once the cops didn’t have a case that had some smelly dark corners. The evidence was good. The tape was clear and loud. The guy truly was a major dealer. The criminalist told me he had the lab test the heroin three times by three different technicians because it was so pure he thought they were making a mistake. And the dealer got a plea to simple possession and served a year and a half all pre-trial detention because the jury didn’t like the snitch. He would have done serious state prison time if convicted. He was a major supplier and the judge hearing the case would have given him the max under the law. Didn’t like the snitch ! ! !
Well, it’s late. I have ranted on long enough.
LCC: Nope, I disagree! You’re not ranting.
30 bundles? Man, in PA, cops supplement their income knocking down dealers for payoffs with part of that. 2 were caught redhanded stealing coke from the evidence room. both were fired, nothing more. the dnc was so impressed, both were made politicians. When 2 million dollars disappeared out of Hazleton, PA, city hall, the one, the mayor, lost the next election. But, man, he now has a very nice new house and bought a Cessna to play in. Every time the feds tried to get him in court, his lawyers put some kind of stay on it and the dem judges went along with it, eventually dismissing the case. When W was n office, they cracked down on coke. A raid by state droppers netted kilos of it. then, the man who was holding it for the owner said, hey, half of its missing. He wound up face down in a strip mine, the coroner called it an accidental drowning and all those boot marks on his back must have happened when he ‘fell’ in the mine. niio
If Unies come to you block after SHTF, they’ll be armed and might be Americans. Watts Riot was a pretty standard for today. it could have been stopped, but no political hay would have been made of it. In the last couple of riots, preachers in black and Mexican ‘hoods were raising hell, telling men to go home, get your guns, and protect your woman and neighborhood like men should. any fool complains, send them to me.
Lincoln curtailed rights for the duration of the war, the Patriot Act was simply all the scattered laws, rules, and regulation brought into one act. Any crud that came against the Constitution the dnc demanded or already had was discarded, killed. This is why Trump is vital. The S. Court is due for a major shift, and dems are gearing up for war against the people. conservative judges do not see the US as an oligarchy. niio
IF local government and services would actually prepare (the key word) for SHTF situation there would be police cars, gas stores, and what ever happened to auxiliary police personnel from the private sector to be ready to offer the services so that the police wouldn’t need to get too stressed out or burned out. Unfortunately, Government from town, city to national don’t prepare! Food responsibility is ours individually. It should be made clear that if you are capable of it you should do it. If not, we need to get something going for the poor and disabled. IF one is able-bodied they can help. If they refuse to prepare or work, well, it may sound cruel but they are as good as killing others so they should be shot. We won’t have prisons after a while unless we can keep their employees fed and housed. It’s all a big pipe-dream, though, because I see no evidence to moving in proactive directions. So, those of us who do prepare have to protect what is ours so that we can survive.
EVERYBODY can’t get a place in the boonies. There wouldn’t be any boonies left! That doesn’t mean that the majority cannot survive. I digress. What do you think of the auxiliary citizen police idea? Is it feasible?
You say hide some of your guns, supplies and do not fight them. If they are coming for your guns , supplies you damn well better fight them. They will be back again and again to look. How do yopu know they will not stop at your wife or daughter. No , when it gets to food and guns the fight is on.
As I stated earlier, I myself view the confiscation of anything I own for the “greater good” to be morally deficient. I can only die once and will defend what is mine. It WILL NOT STOP after just 1 time. They will always be back.
Yes, you can only die once, so try to put it off as long as possible. Personally I don’t think my preps are worth dying for. Even if I lose everything I’ve collected over the years, as long as I’m alive I can start over. I can grow, preserve and store more food. I can get another gun. Even starting from zero again I have a chance. If I’m lying dead in the burned shell of my home, I don’t have a chance. Prepping is what I do to make sure I can stay alive. I have no plans to go out in a blaze of glory trying to protect stuff that, when we get right down to it, is just stuff.
Claude: yes, exactly. It was one thing to be a firebrand when a teenager, but now we’re supposed to be adults. We still get a kick out of people stopping to ask what those pretty flowers are. “Um, radishes going to seed so we have a fall crop.” Or canna (roots), thyme, rosemary, calendula, safflower, asparagus (ferns are very nice 🙂 My sisters also raise elephant garlic–flowers and bulbs in their hidden gardens. niio!
First, that’s one great name! Soylent green was an eye-opener. The book, then the movie.
OK, goes like this: You fight, they drag you off alive or by the heels, then what? Are you alone? OK, do what you want. Family? Can they survive without you? Wife and daughter? Unie troops are like Confucius said of draftees, neither good men for soldiers or good iron for nails. He was into the all-volunteer redneck military. Unies have been kowen to rob people, ignore murders, take bribes, and rape even small children. The best way I can see to fight them is give them what they think they want. From Native American preppers, an old trash compactor filled with rags packed in dark plastic, marked like it contained dried food. These can be ‘hidden’ in easily discovered places. they are heavy and hard, and can pass for what they’re marked. Some, of course should, cans that are badly out of date. Greased and wrapped in plastic, it’s amazing how easy it is to hide things in the earth and concrete. A little black pepper helps keep nosy dogs away. some junk buried 6″ to a foot over what’s hidden helps stop nosy people with metal detectors. For dogs, as well, skeletons of rodents makes handlers doubt the dogs. CIA operatives recommend cheap makeup kits to change appearances. A little of the right mix and you look as haggard and weak as the neighbors. Buy clothes a size or two too large and it helps, as well. The idea is hiding in plain sight. Even gardens should be all eatables but look like ornamentals. Most flowers from Native American gardens wee vegetables, today unknown as food. Again, the idea is to oretend to go along with them like a good citizen. It’s hidden in plain sight and most won’t see it as any different. How do you think Mexicans are arming? Play along with the government (PRI is a sister party to the DNC), then drug lords have terrible accidents. Slings make no noise, but when that rock hits, the poor dude tends to fall over. Not a lot remains at the bottom of the cliff. Hopefully, he drops his DNC-supplied M16 before having his accident. Yet, to look at most people, they smile, they go along with the government. Up to a point. It’s a silent rebellion. Listen to the song, Silent Running and you see it. niio
If you try to fight a police tactical unit, never mind troops, you’re going to die. Most of us could hold our own against a couple of local cops in a cruiser, but if you get into a fight with them a SWAT team won’t be far behind. This is a fight you can’t win. Hide as much as you can – everything, if possible – and maybe keep a couple of token cheap guns to keep them happy.
Be like Native Americans. rule one, always agree with what they say and maybe they’ll go away and leave you alone. That alone kept cultures alive even under the worse governments, everywhere. Rule 7, feed the hogs only when you have power to fight, not just a childish temper that will get your family dead. A things come to he who waits.Be patient, be invisible and humble. niio
Having retired from law enforcement I can tell you your off base. The new breed of Law Enforcement are self centered no nothing idiots in general. The first sign of real danger that is persistent most will run home to Moma and never return. As far as a SHTF if it is nationwide in the US it will be worldwide. In which case every country will need their troops and police to maintain order in their own countries. They certainly will not being helping the US. If SHTF happens it will be chaos. The community will have to do it’s own policing.
Your ideas are great but when you live on $900 or less and your rent is $540 and you still have utilities and meds.
it’s impossible to save.
Lou, yes, been there done that but also prepped. Cases of food can be bought a few cans at a time. grains and legumes have to be stored in a freezer of dry canned is you can’t afford dry ice to kill eggs in them. wild crafting builds food reserves fast. Hidden gardens work wonders to keep people from raiding the garden. Most don’t know we used to eat canna roots and dalia roots, roots from day lilies and so on. a lot of native domesticated fruits look like poisonous plants (nightshade family). And, often the only enable part is the dead ripe fruit. Burdock roots are gobo in Japan. Primroses, as far as I know, most of the plant is eatable and was raised as food. Even our ‘house plants’ are food, sweet potatoes waiting for summer, tomatillos are in bloom already, and so on. when we cook beans, and we use a lot, we’re in Arizona, 5 lbs is soaked and cooked, drained, and most will go in 1 lb bags in the freezer. For camping, they re-hydrate easily. Same with rice and most pre-cooked veggies. My best to you. I know the feeling, where you’re at too well. niio
I don’t think friend or foe has anything to do with it. And a hurricane is different than SHTF, which is a more permanent event. Those with family there will go home to protect family. Single might stay on the job, depending. It will be every man for himself. A small group of cops will be outmanned AND outgunned.
Not using the military on U.S. soil is called passa comitatus. If you think this won’t happen, you may want to take a closer look at what happened in Waco, Texas.
You said it, but I don’t know any in military who would go along with a dictatorship. Hitler had to hold a gun to peoples heads to get most to go along with him. BTW, the Wiemar Republic had purposely destroyed the economy, following Lenin’s manifesto. the gun was, Hitler had a plan to save social security and put starving people back to work. Ask Nacy Pelosi, we have to vote for the bill to see what’s in it. Hitler said, you have to vote for me to find out what I want to do to save you. niio
Given the choice between using US troops and foreign troops the odds come down to the use of US troops. I was a military officer and I, like you, know the prohibitions, But prohibitions tend to go away in emergency situations. Most people ‘s SHTF plans include some breaking of normal prohibitions. The same is true for Governments. They do what is necessary. I simply do not believe that the US military will calmly sit out a SHTF situation eating their rations and staying on base while the area around them collapses into anarchy. At a minimum I expect them to maintain order in surrounding communities if only to ensure the continuation of agriculture. Laws or no laws’ it is unrealistic to expect the US military to sit on its backside during a major emergency.
The nastiest situation you may face if the SHTF is a breakdown in military discipline to where bands of soldiers run amok. Forget criminals, gangbangers, immigrants, and assorted nut cases running around with guns they don’t really know how too use effectively.. With them you might stand a chance of winning a gun battle. Trained soldiers will most likely leave you and your family dead. If you are prior service you know that you are not a young wolf anymore and that the young hungry wolves tend to drag down the old and slow.
In this situation like most SHTF situations, safety lies in becoming invisible by blending into the background. You simply do not want to attract attention or become an object of interest.
Without a government and a military to enforce the Constitution, the Constitution effectively ceases to exist. If the United States loses control of its military then the 2nd Amendment and the rest of Constitution ceases to protect anything. Governments do not die gracefully and what replaces them is usually worse..
Do you really think any government fighting its way up from the ashes will respect gun ownership among groups that might be a threat?
Well said. What government outside of the Swiss respects gun owners today? As I say, take it from Native Americans and lay low, go along with what they want, but teach the kids and grandchildren reality. Resistance that gains victory begins with that. Right now, the PRI in Mexico is finding out that Native Americans are not and never accepted defeat. Right under the noses of the police, the drug lords, military and politicians, people are demanding to be counted as Native American, and are arming. Yes, at 16 all men have to go into the military, but the resistance likes that. The PRI pays to teach them to use the weapons they’ll some day be killed with.When SHTF happens, the mojados will run home, but go home thru abandoned border posts armed. We’ll see the same here, but the death toll will be much higher. I hope my youngest stepson is home, then. He’s a weapons expert. When he was ten, I did what I could to help him over his father’s abuse. Then took him to the closest armory and they ‘adopted’ him, taught him,corrected him when he needed it. Everything they showed him he remembered and used when he went Army. niio
10 U.S. Code § 12406 – National Guard in Federal service …
the President may call into Federal service members and units of the National Guard of any State in such numbers as he considers necessary to repel the invasion, suppress the rebellion, or execute those laws. Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors
Yes, true. It was one thing when dems were rioting against the Civil War and the military stopped it. But, when the computers get fried, what? Rügen Island was used to test A-bombs by the Nazis. Each time it was reported phone service as far as Berlin was disrupted for several days. Today, phones are run by computers, not people. Most modes of transportation, as well. Given the panic and rioting that’s going to happen, how do you get a message from DC to even Maryland or Penna? We’re efficient, yes. Give it a few months and things will calm down. As far a I can tell, it might take years to get back to normal. We will, we always do. but in the mean time, keep your powder dry and close at hand and if you have to, do what you know you need to do to keep them family safe. niio
It is my thought that you will have to treat everyone as a potential enemy in a shift situation. I served in the army and was trained for gorilla war fare. Now the ways to figure out if they are friend or foe is limited. First is do not confront them. If you see them coming hide your self and family. (It is best to patrol your area for at least a mile around watch, listen, talk to known friends and gather data as to what is happening) This will tell which side they are on and what their objective is. For me I am not a survivalist per say and the reason is simple, I don’t have the money to put into supplies etc. BUT I am a country boy born and raised. I can survive where others will fail without a stock pile of supplies. Food, Guns, shelter and some type of entertainment is needed for survival. Food I can hunt and gather. Guns I have. Shelter I can make. Entertainment well I can devise different types. Yes hunting will be hard after a few weeks and you will have to travel long ways to find deer and other animals. Fishing will last longer because fish will replenish faster and there are many lakes around.
But I do not expect to survive more then a few months. The reason is simple I am now to old to forage far and wide.
I do not fear death because I am a christian but do not get me wrong i will kill if i am forced to, such as being attacked. I will not attack others unless I know they are going to attack me and my family, but if I have to attack you can bet there will be fewer of them for I am a dead shot with almost any weapon.
As to all this worry about what to do, stock and have there is this saying a great general once said all plains go out the window when the first shot is fired.
hear-hear. But, how old? Can you hunt or forage? Can food? Can you shop yet? A few extra cans when shopping builds up. My grandmother was going on 80 when she passed away. Her spare bedroom had cases of food. She was raised a prepper, so to speak, and never left that. who’s your backup? I don’t expect to survive long, either, but when I go, the neighbors can have what they want, and use the gardens. Most of them are strong support for us. I can’t shoo for nothing anymore, but the neighbors all can. Write to us, let us know how you’re doing. Where are you in general? I’m in Arizona. niio
UN troops aren’t going to happen. There’s no way it could happen unless the federal government agreed, and there’s no way the federal government’s going to agree. Even if it did, nothing’s going to happen. The UN doesn’t HAVE any troops, and do you think any UN member is going to agree to supply troops to come here and get shot at? Nope.
Yo! 🙂 And, most nations will be scrambling to keep power. China might have troops to spare, but they’re busy staring down Putin, who wants more turf and China to stay away from Siberia. Vietnam would grab a chance to reclaim lands lost to China in SE China, where many Nam Việt still live. niio
My friend this question has been answered sheriff’s closing churches, military vehicles in the streets. The question is are you ready to fight if need be. Personally I also think that question has been answered true preppers out there ask yourself this question how much of the prepper community is preppers? I think many with their stance on COVID are survivalists, minimalists and environmentalists. Much of their stance supports hard left wing points of views. They don’t even think of questioning government motives. Don’t laugh it’s a lot of them. You will struggle to find so called preppers who support the concept that our government and other countries governments might be at least to some degree dishonest in their intentions
Lou,
I get what you’re saying, but I think you are confused about what it means to be a prepper. There are conservative right wing paramilitary preppers and communal hippy, flower power preppers and everything in between. Being a prepper has nothing to do with political ideologies, but is a belief in self sufficiency and preparedness for difficult and uncertain times. I personally know open borders, medicaid for all, socialist leaning, lgbttxyz gendered preppers that would love to have the government take care of their needs but are smart enough to understand that it is incapable doing just that. So they learned to farm, can their harvest, butcher their livestock and live off grid for when there is no government.. Yes, the government we have now is a hot mess and getting worse and needs to be restored to it’s constitutional roots if we ever hope to remain a nation of the free and the brave. Am I willing and prepared to fight to restore the Republic? Hell yes! Am I looking forward to the fight getting started? Hell No. A civil war on par with our previous one would result in over 60 million deaths. Think about that for a while before you decide you want to hurry up and start a fight.
Hound: yes! Henry Ford said, “Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him had better take a closer look at the American Indian.” SS medicine (free clinics) life span 57 years. Diabetes rampant. Infant death rate equal to 3rd world nations.
One comic aspect of socialism is millennials voted for SS and so on, and now are bitter because they’re forced to pay thru the nose for it. NYC, Italy, Spain, are all paying thru the nose because of it. Yet, they still fight for ss med and other fairy tales. niio
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