What About Other Countries?
Get any group of preppers together to talk about potential TEOTWAWKI events, and EMP is bound to come up. Of all the possible disaster scenarios that you can imagine, it’s hard to come up with something that would more completely change our lives here in the United States, than being attacked via EMP. From Forstchen’s “One Second After” to hundreds of articles written about the subject, we’ve folded, spindled and mutilated the subject of EMP to the point where it appears that we should all know what we’re talking about.
Yet in the midst of all this talk about EMP, it’s startling how little we actually know about it. Not only is there a lot of misinformation which has been spread around, but the amount of accurate information is inhibited by the fact that we’ve never experienced one. Most of the empirical data that we have is based upon a few isolated tests run in the early 1960s. Very little actual experimentation has been done to add to that data.
With that being the case, much of what we talk about is speculation, extrapolated from the little bit of hard data that we do have. Much of the technology we use today didn’t even exist during the Starfish Prime tests; so there really is no proof of how an EMP will affect cell phones, the “brains” in cars and even modern aircraft.
Nevertheless, there are some things which are certain, based upon the information that we have. Amongst these, the most important is that the electrical power grid will be seriously damaged by the EMP. So, regardless of whether our phones and cars are working five minutes after the event, the systems which support them won’t be. With that in mind, it really doesn’t matter if our phones and our cars still work; our phones won’t work without the network and our cars won’t work without fuel.
Typically, when we look at an EMP scenario, it’s done as if the United States lives in a vacuum, without any other countries involved, other than the attacking country. Yet we are a part of a global community. So that raises the question about what these other countries might do.
That’s not a simple question. But I think there are some things we can clearly state.
First of all, if the United States electrical grid is destroyed by an EMP, so would at least half of Mexico’s grid and Canada’s grid. This would probably have a more serious impact on Canada, as their culture is closer to ours and they are more dependent on electricity than Mexico is. I’ve spent a considerable amount of time in Mexico, and while they have all the modern conveniences that we do, they are also much closer to a life without electricity. The people know how to survive without it, especially in the rural areas.
The other thing that will affect Canada is that most of their population is in the southern part of the country, near their border with the United States, putting them right in the area covered by the EMP.
Considering that they would be in as much trouble as we are, there’s no way we could expect much help from Canada or Mexico. Not only that, but any help coming from other countries would not only be directed to the USA, but also to our neighbors. For example, help coming from South America would most likely be sent to Mexico, as they have a closer cultural connection.
On the other hand, Europe and Japan would probably reach out to help the USA, as well as other countries around the world. When Hurricane Katrina destroyed New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, 98 countries pledged support. While the State department didn’t accept the help all of those countries offered, it was nice to see that other countries were willing to help.
But in reality, of the $854 million in aid offered, only $40 million ever reached those who needed the help. For some reason, over $400 million in oil went uncollected by our government. Just to put that in perspective, the damage caused by Hurricane Katrina was estimated at $81 billion and the total economic impact on Louisiana and Mississippi may well exceed $150 million.
So, the question is, how many of those countries will help us again and how much of a difference will that make?
I think it’s safe to say that pretty much all those counties will extend a hand to the United States, trying to help as they can. But even if we were to take what they offered for Hurricane Katrina and multiply it by 10, it would be nothing more than a drop in the bucket.
Related: The Safe Zones After an EMP
About 15 percent of the food our country consumes every year is imported. But this figure is outdone by food exports. So the shortage of food here in the US wouldn’t just affect us, but other parts of the world as well. countries which depend on US food exports would have their own problems to be concerned about, even without trying to help us.
The ability of these nations to help the United States would be further hampered by the problems we would be having, due to the grid being down. While ships might pull into our ports and harbors laden with aid, getting that aid off the ships and to the people who need it would be extremely difficult. The harbor facilities would be down, just like everything else. So the only way of unloading those ships would either be by cranes mounted on the ships or by hand.
I’m sure that there will be plenty of people who will be available to help unload those ships by hand, especially if they will be able to receive some of the benefit of their work. But really, how much help can those ships bring? It takes a huge amount of supplies to keep our country going; even to meet our most basic needs.
Considering the amount of food and other critical supplies that would need to be imported to meet our needs, as well as the ability to move that aid once it arrived at our shores, it seems clear that the only people who would benefit from it would be the people living in the coastal population center where it arrived. Considering the size of the population in those areas, it is unlikely that there would be enough to help people living farther inland.
Perhaps after things settled out a bit some of that aid would move inland. But by then, the aid from other countries would be well diminished and many people would have died off. Those who survived would probably have come to grips with the situation and be producing their own food. The biggest thing that would help most of them at that point, would be medicine and medical supplies, as the stockpiles of those would probably have been consumed.
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Only the countries we don’t want, or the UN we don’t want will help out.
I’d probably volunteer to help. I’m a humanist. I value human life and morality. That being said, if you have a pro trump ideology or express hate towards others without good reason, I will happily leave you to die. This may seem contradictory to my views of humanism. But I see it like this.
1. If you treat other races, nationalities, sexes or religions as evil or inferior, you are a piece of shit.
2. I won’t bring people that are going to cause strife or problems later on.
3. From a purely utilitarian aspect, I would rather sacrifice 1,000 bigots to save 10,000 decent people.
I am just the opposite. I would gladly sacrifice 10,000 decent people to save the bigots. Before you condemn me for my thoughts and beliefs, let me explain. When SHTF, the truly decent people will be the ones affected the most. They will have compassion and do their best to help all that they can, even to the detriment of their family. Their faith will be tested and some will even turn from their faith and God. The bigots deserve the punishment they receive on earth and after. My attitude is to let them suffer as long as possible. Let the kind, decent people receive their peace and rewards early.
Mankind will sink to the lowest level of morality possible. We have already sunk lower than some believe was possible. Those that you consider decent, will they remain so when their lives have been turned upside down? Will a bigot go out to rape, torture and kill, or will (s)he reach out to help someone they normally would not help?
We do not know what will happen or how people will react in a SHTF situation. To say you will not help someone that you do not agree with on values and morality just proves how big of a bigot that you are, and you are so blind that you cannot even see it.
Humanist?? I would rather meet a true Christian during a crisis than someone with your beliefs. At least a Christian will try to do the morally right thing, even when (s)he doesn’t agree with you.
You are welcome to your beliefs. But seriously, Christian doing the moral thing or the Christian thing? Christianity allows for slavery for gods sake. Read exodus 21.
You know who never committed witch hunts, crusades, book burnings, heathen hunts, inquisitions, racial bigotry, sexual bigotry, religious bigotry, espousing lies to children? Humanists. You know who has? Christians.
It is a shame that you concentrate on the Old Testament to condemn Christianity. While Jesus did not condemn the past, he clarified God’s law. Mankind has the right of choice. Exodus happened due to the Israelites accepting slavery over starvation.
Jesus taught forgiveness and compassion. He told the parable of the Good Samaritan in order that we might learn to help others regardless of beliefs, nationality, or other bigotry. He taught us to turn the other cheek. He said the poor will always be with us, so I don’t think he expected equality to ever exist.
Just like kind, loving parents should do, God let’s us make choices, and wants us to make the right choice. If your choice is to not help, then I pray that God uses the same criteria for you.
You voted for Trump? No soup for you.
The Soup Nazi
Teri, You are wrong again. Christian do not believe in slavery. Your reference quote to Exodus 21. is from the Old Testament and describes the conditions at the time. Any civilization that conquered another took slaves as well as all their riches. Those people were not Christians. Christianty did not start until the time of Jesus Christ. I am glad that you are reading the Bible but you need to consult with someone that will put it in context for you. You can not take bits and pieces from the Bible without context. You will be extremely confused.
Read the New Testament and follow Jesus Christ’s teachings and Not what some human contrived to be his teaching.
Humans behave badly no matter what religious or secular group you belong to. It is part of Human Fallen nature. If you are putting all your faith in Humanity you are going to be disappointed. I have a saying, Humanity never ceases to amaze me or disappoint me.
I don’t believe you understand where the moral and behavoral values that are used today come from? THEY ARE FROM JUDAO CHRISTIAN BELIEFS. Do you know the 10 Comandments? The Christian Works of Mercy, The Beatitudes . They tell people how to behave. The Fact that humans don’t follow them or pick and choose what they want to follow causes the behavor problems we as humans have. You say that Christians caused and did all those bad things. I will agree with you, However, it was the Humans that basterdized the teaching of Jesus Christ to produced those calamities.
You say Humanist never did any of these things. I don’t know that as fact. Do you know for sure that your predessors weren’t complicit in those deeds.
HUMANS ARE FAULTY.
I assume you have a good, valid reason for your bitterness, but, please fact check. Jesus condemned slavery by condemning uncharitable people. Your version of slavery, something becoming common as nations abandon Christianity, is hardly the same as slavery in the Bible. the entire War Between the States issue was anti-slavery in the Bible Belt–northern states then, and the agnostic south.so far, atheists have slaughtered 220 million in their bid to own the world. Hawaii U. Every law has it’s basis in human psychology, the Bible. Most of Moses Law is in fact modern law in most nations of the world. those who are leading the world down the merry path to destruction of civilization are often anti-Christians. Which witches? You mean Wicca,which is paganism, or do you mean torture live babies to death witches, like in the Bible for fun and profit? The Inquisition was based on secular laws and modified, forced to be more merciful only because the RC demanded it. The RC also condemned people taking slaves because the Bible states such people are demonic. Crusades: !0 million Christians stolen from Europe’s coast lines (not even counting those from Eastern Europe) by slavers led to the Crusades. Even Iceland was raided twice, losing over 400 people. Africa, 25 million and more. India, far more, all thanks to greed, not God. God states self-defense is allowable. BTW, Hitler was an atheist, stating the earth is man’s only god. He based is work on his atheism, as someone with the right to do as he did because he had the power. His quotes against Christianity are some of the most lurid, mocking comments anyone ever spoke. Who are the enemy? Islamic terrorists who follow Hitler. Terrorists who would still be stuck in a backwater were it now thanks to militant atheists destroying Christianity and thereby destroying the only protection atheists have against terrorism.
And “humanists ” allow for abortion which is murder under a different name with a bow tied around it.
Well said.
Teri & Prepper In Training,
We do not know what will happen or how people will react in a SHTF situation. To say you will not help someone that you do not agree with on values and morality just proves how big of a bigot that you are, and you are so blind that you cannot even see it.
First of all, we have a pretty good idea of how people will act in an SHTF situation, such as the one that hit Ohio this past Memorial Day Monday evening with thunderstorms that spawned 20 tornadoes. Unless you’ve lived next to someone who has been an evil PITA for a long time, most people just forget their petty differences and try to help as much as they can. People came out of nowhere and tried helping to get windows covered and tarps on pieces of roofs that were gone. One house had the roof blown off of one of the bedrooms, and by morning, there were several tarps already fastened to cover the hole and make that room at least usable.
Humanist?? I would rather meet a true Christian during a crisis than someone with your beliefs. At least a Christian will try to do the morally right thing, even when (s)he doesn’t agree with you
Personally I don’t really care what or if you believe, as long as the unbelievers are not subject to decapitation. I have run into more than a few Christians that were judgmental if I didn’t believe what they believes, word for word, so let’s not praise nor denigrate any group.
I work with my county EMA and volunteer as a CERT member and when we approach a situation we don’t ask questions about religion or politics; but, do assess the situation and the people to determine what aid may be needed and rendered.
It is only on these forums where people get to pontificate about their lofty attitudes and put down those they cannot even see from the comfort of their homes.
When however you actually see people standing outside their house with the roof missing or flames coming out the windows, most people either back away to get out of the way, or do what they can to render assistance.
During the blizzard of 1978 I had a large house that was one of the few that did not lose power. During that next 3 or 4 days, I had more than a few neighbors drop by to warm up or get some food, and a few who rarely talked to each other had time to sit and talk, changing the dynamics of that neighborhood from that point on.
The only way you know how you will act, is to get into the arena right now. Volunteer with your local government organizations or Red Cross or Salvation Army to get some training and some real world experience and you’ll have a much better and perhaps different view of both humanity and how real people act in disasters.
For every one bad guy looter, you will fine hundreds who sacrifice and do the right thing.
Ohio Prepper, short term you might be right. But long term it’s going to be every man for himself. There will probably be communities where what you said is true. But for others, it might not last that long. Hundreds of thousands of people should be protesting every day for the stupid Congress to harden the infrastructre. But they DO NOT CARE!!! It will all be on their head if this happens (but I’m sure they’ll all be taken care of, so no skin off their noses)!
Ur bones will bleach on a roadside. Never underestimate the ability of humans to be cruel or stupid. Don’t suffer their fate. Stupid will fight you and defeat you. They are better at it.
Why do you believe Trump supporters are not humanitarians?
Because they are bigots
Dave,
Why do you believe Trump supporters are not humanitarians?
Elaine
Because they are bigots
Can you name one that you actually know and explain the bigotry?
You realize that you are calling at least half of the country bigots, simply because they could not stomach HRC and herself important lies, that continue to this day.
I support the policies of the administration and if you were actually clear minded, you could at least see the benefits, compared to the socialists who will give you free stuff and then take your soul.
Tiny carrot in your face, and big rhetorical stick to the back of your head.
No Ohio Prepper, I am NOT! My comment was moved to a different place, as I explained to Dave above. My comment was aimed at Teri, who would let someone bleed out and die if they were a Trump supporter! I guess if she saw someone in trouble, the first thing out of her mouth would be ”DO YOU SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP?” And if it’s a yes, she would probably off you or something. She’s a self proclaimed humanist! (Not humanitarian, humanist!) She basically said if you are a Trump supporter, you are a hater and a piece of shit. So I called her a bigot!!! Is that enough of an explanation of bigotry for you? Hopefully yes! Actually, when I first read her comment I was totally stunned! Can’t believe someone would even THINK that way, let alone say it or WRITE IT DOWN!
Wow… you’re attitude is very sad. Too much CNN for you. I’m a Trump supporter, carry a gun and would gladly help you to get back on your feet again if needed. That’s what good Americans do.
Elaine, the only bigot here is you! You are really sad. I hope that you are just young and naive? And wake up and smell the coffee. Stay in school and learn the meaning of bigotry? And look at the Democratic Party? They are the definition of bigotry for anyone that has any kind of education at all? Don’t sound stupid, it’s sad!
Hard Rock, if you are referring to what I said about right under Dave’s comment, I was NOT answering him. I was answering Teri. When I made that comment, there were ZERO responses to her! All the others came about later and were put in there above mine. I was just totally flummoxed that someone would make the remark she did, about not ever helping a Trump supporter. Ron Paul is my hero! Do you think Ron Paul supporters would leave people to die on the side of the road if they could help? Whoever Teri supports would, I guess, as that’s what she would do! It is hard to keep supporting Trump with what he is doing to Julian Assange, and also wanting to put a person who wants gun restriction as head of the BATF, and having lovely Pompeo and Bolton in there. I keep hoping they will go the way of Jeff Sessions! Drain the swamp!!!
Just to let you know. I am a fan of Ron Paul, always was and always will be. As to Julian Assange, also a huge fan, of someone who has done so much good for humanity, so I want you to know that you should try to keep up to date, regarding the latest regarding Julian, in other words things are not what they seem and I was pleasantly surprised with the latest information that came out this last week, that is not common knowledge.
Hey Carmen! I need to add Dr Paul Craig Roberts to my list too! I’m sure you must know him also! The only things I have seen so far is that it looks like they may be trying to knock Assange off. I will definitely keep my eyes open; I wish it would be something totally different, where he is being healed and comfortable for obvious reasons. I’ll definitely be watching though!
Because they are bigots and very judgmental. Sounds like very far left communism — I mean liberalism
Dave, this reply did not go to the correct comment. It was addressed to Teri’s comment that she would withhold all help from any Trump supporter. She was the one I was calling a bigot! It’s an absolutely asinine thing to say, that Trump supporters are not humanitarians. But I don’t think she was talking about humanitarians. I think she was saying humanists! Opposite end of the spectrum from a humanitarian!
In Training replies quite eloquently.
I will just say, I hope your brainwashing from the MSM and the educational system wears off soon for you. That way you can truly open your mind and see past the political trap your in. I used to see things so clearly as you do now. Then I was struck by reality and the lies from both sides that are still of the same coin designed to keep us in the dark.
Good Luck with your bad self. May you earn what you’ve sown.
You’ll be one of the first the non-“bigots” do in. People like you are a plague on humanity. You see the world through race. People are people. I may not like you, but not because of your race, but because I just don’t like you. People like you would call me a bigot because I don’t agree with your politics. People like you make assumptions about what is in people’s minds. People like you have a paranoid obsession bprding on lunacy about race and color. Yup, they’ll do you people in first.
# 1, 2, 3 apply to you 100%.
Teri, your comment has me believing you must be one of the most ignorant bigots on the planet. You have judged all Trump supporters to be bigots & not worthy of life. Nice. If you judge all people based on who they vote for, you are a piece of shit. You are obviously one of those people who would cause strife & problems in a SHTF scenario. You’ll be one of the first to die in a true crisis. But since you’re a humanist you must understand that your sacrifice will be for the greater good of the group. Good luck.
Teri,
That being said, if you have a pro trump ideology or express hate towards others without good reason, I will happily leave you to die.
President Trump is human and has ego and frailties like all of us. I didn’t actually vote for him; but, against HRC; however, I think he’s doing a pretty good job, considering the Dems and the MSM try continuously to block & resist his efforts.
Anyone who would happily leave anyone else to die over rhetoric, may quickly find themselves out on their own.
But I see it like this.
1. If you treat other races, nationalities, sexes or religions as evil or inferior, you are a piece of shit.
I know of no one like this including the administration. Perhaps you need to get off of CNN & look into the details a bit.
2. I won’t bring people that are going to cause strife or problems later on.
Bring them where? Do you have a MAG and a place where people would want to come and offer their resources & skills?
3. From a purely utilitarian aspect, I would rather sacrifice 1,000 bigots to save 10,000 decent people.
Who gets to decide what constitutes a bigot? In today’s P.C. world, opening the door for someone could get you labeled as sexist, ageist, or some other “ist”.
For a humanist you certainly don’t seem to understand the human condition, especially when under stress.
Teri,
There is so much wrong with your statement that I had to respond.
From your statment, I believe you think everyone that is pro Trump is a Hater. That is NOT AT ALL TRUE. You are spouting the Democratic rhetoric we have been hearing since the Obama era. Because I don’t believe in the democratric philosophy that doesn’t make me a hater. It means I disagree with its philosophy. Welcome to the world of politics. The fact that the Dems adopted the word HATER for anyone who disagrees with them was a dispicable and low thing to do. No decent person wants to be called a Hater. This was a means to sway public opinion. My opinion has not changed.
Your 3 points shows that YOU ARE THE HATER.
You said that anyone that treats others as evil or inferior is a piece of Shit. You have done exactly that by calling them a piece of shit. Shit is waist. What is more inferior than that. You are SHIT.
2 You don’t want to bring along anyone who will cause Strife or problems later on. It sounds like you are trying to create a Utopia. There is NO SUCH THING. It is a figment of your imagination There will always be Humans that disagree with you. Your Utopia is not MY Utopia. WE Are Human and if you don’t understand human nature you are lost.
3 There you go again calling people names.
1000 Bigots to save 10,000 decent people.
What is you definition of decent people? Only those that agree with you. With that logic, You are not decent people. Should you be saved??? if you are the one needing help. YOU ARE A BIGOT, like many of us. Look up the word Bigot in the dictionary.
SO, can you be bigoted and be decent people. Most Bigotry is in degrees and Who are you to judge.
To my detractors, read exodus 21. And tell me the chapter where Jesus clarifies it to where god and the Bible no longer condones owning people as property.
Teri
Matthew 25 is talking about a man that was ordered to be sold because he could not pay his debt. (Another of Jesus’ parables).
Depending on the translation, servant and slave are used interchangeably.
I read the Bible, but I do not fully comprehend it. BUT, I READ it to gain knowledge. I have learned that the Bible is NOT a fairy tale, and that signs are coming true. There are things that scientists cannot prove to be wrong. Even if you don’t have the desire to accept Jesus, then at least have the desire to learn the moral code of those you condemn.
God, Jesus, and the Bible, to the best of my knowledge, do not condemn slavery. That condemnation comes from man. I don’t even know if the Bible directly condemns abortion. What I do know is that we will be judged for our sins. If we do not know that it is a sin to kill an unborn child, God will not care. He has given us a moral code. It is not for me to condemn, because God will judge me more harshly than I judged others.
We each have choices, as I stated earlier. Our choices are supposed to align with God’s laws. Jesus did not change God’s law, he came to say that the laws of God and Moses are to be adhered to. Man is trying to change God’s law. Don’t believe me?? Saturday is the Sabbath, yet the Catholic church and the Pope have changed our day of worship to Sunday, which is the pagan day to honor the sun god.
I will obey man’s law, because Jesus has commanded that I do so, as long as man’s law does not contradict God’s law.
I truly hope you enjoy your life, because we only get one shot at it. I have not led a “decent” life, but I am working hard to make amends. I only ask that you quit trying to condemn God, Jesus, and Christians because you do not believe.
Sunday is Son’s Day. Paul said to not bicker, but choose a day and stick with it. Most Christians attended schul (synagogue) Friday night and worshiped on son’s Day,as well (where Paul told them to stop getting drunk before worship service is over 🙂 Sunday worship predates the popes. Jesus condemned slavery. It was only allowed because it was a form of welfare. Most women taken as slaves would up married to men of wealth, and most men taken because wealthy by co-investing with their owners. When it came time for freedom, after so many years, the owner by law had to pay the slave what he would have earned as a free man working for his master. W. Penn did this when buying bond slaves for the colony. Good post, thank you.
Actually it’s Sun’s Day, and the origin is in Germanic paganism. All our other days have Germanic pagan names too – they’re named after the moon, Tyr, Odin, Thor, Freya and Saturn. In Paul’s time Sunday was Dies Solis, “Day of the sun”. The ancient Jewish week didn’t have names for the days, except Shabbat.
Oh, please, you are as clueless as it gets. Your side is worse than Trump’s side, you just are better at trying to fake by calling them racist. Most of the people attacking Trump for being “racists” would not invited any so called minority to their homes for a cup of coffee, worried that they may ask to use the bathroom. I fall under Hispanic (93% white with 7% Tainos the people from the Caribbean) and the farther north I go the worse it gets. Try any of your “minority friendly” fellow Demos cities and see exactly how bad it is for the “minorities”. Chicago-Demos controlled, Camden, New Jersey-same; Detroit, Michigan-same. I could go on and on. What do those have in common? The worse slums in the US, with zero hope of ever getting better. Why are “minorities” moving to the the Republican party? They are finding out that it was all an illusion and you people do not give a dang about the so called “minorities”. Your party is the party of hate and suppression of others. Your party is the one that was in favor of slavery, something you glaze over. Still is. Hey, I forgot the slums of San Francisco and Los Angeles-same party. With friends like you we would go back to slavery at the drop of a grid. (Not that anyone in my family was ever a slave or will ever be. My particular group has an attitude, and according to the NSA site, we are the one group of US citizens from birth, with the highest percentage of graduate and post graduate degrees. It’s not the Asians, they follow after us.) Meanwhile people like you still pretend we are your inferiors. Go jump in a lake, Michigan has a big one.
Wow! Bigot much? So you’re even going to politicize human suffering? I’m a Full On Registered Deplorable. (0000366) but I would never politicize need or circumstances at that level. I’ll bet you are one of those people that say “If I see a pickup stuck on the side of the road with a TRUMP sticker on it, I just drive on by.” but at the same time you criticize those who would do the same for HOPE & CHANGERs as horrible bigots. You do what you want. I will always be charitable. Your hate for Christianity comes from a modern day propaganda campaign. As such, I would predict that your survival odds after the EMP will be very low.
As An Atheist and with humanist values I find this remark horrid . It is the same mentality that Hitler used against the Jews and other he deemed unfit.
I would say probably other countries would help, such as Canada, England, maybe Israel and one or two others.
Even though America gives more to this rock we live on than we get back, we still are hated in most places.
Imperialism, pollution, constant warfare, a demagogue for a leader etc. fuck America. You bring less to this world than most of Europe.
You forgot exceptionalism and bullyism! What would you call Hillary though if SHE was the leader? You think the present one is bad???
As a non-interventionist, I agree with some of your points.
I’ve always believed that America would be way better off minding our own business and only trading with other countries as good neighbors should but not get involved in what goes on in their country. Live and let live is my motto.
Kluass…..you’re a fucking idiot. Europe? What a joke. Your kind gave the world Hitler, Stalin, religious intolerance, attempted decimation of the Jews, the Inquisition, and two world wars and colonialism via the English and German Empires. I could go on but obviously your contempt for the US conveniently ignores Europe’s last three hundred years. Eat shit and die……
Klaußm
Imperialism, pollution, constant warfare, a demagogue for a leader etc. fuck America. You bring less to this world than most of Europe.
Constant warfare?
You mean the Europe that tried to kill itself off twice in just the 20th century, where we had to come in and not only save your butts; but, spend billions afterword rebuilding your infrastructure. We could well have let you all kill each other off and then let the survivors freeze in the dark; but, we didn’t.
The next time you think about how horrible we (the USA) are, perhaps you should take the train to Flanders Field American Cemetery and Memorial in Belgium, where more than 400 US GI’s were left behind, dead and buried, defending all of you from another one of your constant squabbles.
Ach, ach, ach, such a short memory. Ask your Grossfadder if he survived WWII about the Marshall Plan. Ask your Grossmudder about the Berlin airlift. Ask them about the cases of Spam and bricks of cheese and the wheat marked U.S. that were distributed to your landsmann all over Germany while Germans were starving because of the maniacal policies of Adolph Hitler. Or do you think he was a German hero?
Unfortunately you are probably too young to recognize a real demagogue. Review old newsreels of Hitler ranting and screaming as he pranced on a stage while tens of thousands of your landsmann were screaming “Heil Hitler.” There, meinherr, is a real demagogue.
The real demagogues, the Huey Longs, the Father Coughlins, the FDRs, the Adolph Hitlers and Vladimir Lenin’s are gone to their just desserts.
You need to study a little more history. “Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are forever condemned to repeat its mistakes.”
Sounds like you are one of those who will repeat its mistakes.
Klauss: You just showed us why Europe will die long before the US. Why Europe is bombarded with terrorism, yet you have the very highest security. Europe stole, not gave. Europe enslaved most of the world and most of the world hates you for wrecking their nations. Ask the Herero about Germany and civilization. they’ll laugh at you. Amazing how most of the world wants to emigrate to the US, but only desperate go to Europe. When push comes to shove, there won’t be enough population in Europe to do more than kneel before the newest colonizers. I don’t say that in hate or to mock, but know what Europeans have done in the past will happen to them in the future. America grows stronger when we get nailed. Europe is crumbling. Only Switzerland and the UK are trying to remain independent of it. American tech, American democracy, American education have gone around the world and been welcomed by all but dictators. peace.
Papi, American education? Still not up to date with facts? Check out the top three nations in student scores in the planet. Hint: we are way, way behind. Heck, former third world nation, until slightly over a decade ago is number 3, as in South Korea and we no longer make it to the top 20. Not a very good example. Like I asked before where do you get you data? 1980, the year the powers that be decided to go full force dumbing down the population. You are 39 years behind the times. And are part of the 99% of the population who did NOT notice. And people wonder why we are in this mess. Try researching and studying. Ask any real Republican how it is going in terms of “Democracy” when we elect a president and the media and the other side are on constant attack. Hint: they don’t believe in duly elected president. Did you fall asleep, ages ago? No wonder we are in trouble. We are not welcome by most, thanks to a better than you attitude. Sad, to say the least, especially since we P Ricans are the number one group defending the US. Not too many other people willing to volunteer. Really, really sad. Army brat reporting. Dreaming of pajaritos, is not the way to go, using brains is a much better choice. Are you military, since you keep saying “we”. Hint (how many is that) many of the “emigrate to the US” have ulterior motives. Ask Mexico, they have identified people from just about every nation in the planet (let just say not exactly Christians) there with the people from “Central America” waiting to “emigrate”. Knowledge will set you free. Lack of it will not. Congratulations, I have awarded you the ultimate Darwin prize. You amaze me, papi, baby. lol Ay bendito, Pobrecito. Spanish for those that haven’t guess it. Red knows what it means.
Joven en corazon, Carmen,‘mano, I know you ain’t writing to me! ‘Skins give more sons to defend this nation and any other people. Only goofs, the skins for hire, claim America did anything to anyone. Imagine how that sounds–half of the continent jumping up to crush us. Does not compute. Always put a letter behind a name and D stands out over all the rest, and always did.
Yeah, thanks to neolibs, we went from reading comprehension at close to 12th grade level to 5th grade average today. Best way to own a people, never allow them an education, always keep them at a low level. Always twist the truth and always hire the best whips you can among their own to control them. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharkton (pun intended), and so on. Skins for hire. Divide and conquer. The KKK and Nazis used it as successfully as Rome, the Arabs, and the Aztec.
Hm, do not agree: If we’re not welcomed by most outside the US, why do so many fight, and even die to come here? The UK rejected the EU constitution because it doesn’t match ours. Now, a lot of folks in Europe are demanding their guns back. Politicians are mocking them for it, but when push comes to shove, the EU is in for a civil war. Remember what Holland did to chase out the Spanish? Yeah, they had no guns, but people matched the Spanish with hammers, pitchforks, and hate. Women would throw their babies at the Spaniards so the men could get in and fight close-up. Catholic and Protestant alike. BTW, most old enemies are firm friends and respect us. You can count on one hand those who we fought who still hate us. Canada is one. N. Korea. Do you know any others? None come to mind. Vietnam welcomes us as the people of the Golden Country. It’s in the top ten for US vets to retire to. America is the only place Hanoi leftists allow people to emigrate to that isn’t a communist nation. The government will even build you a nice, modern house if you do go. Mexicans mostly are happy to see Americans move in their area. Why not? Enough of them have one or more grandparent who was American, usually white. People who went there to find good jobs and stayed.
Yeah, before WWII, Mexico was hanging nazis. After they were forced by the DNC to withdraw their men from the war, the new president there got wealthy thanking in Nazis. Same thing happened in N. Africa, with the Grand Mufti grabbing ankle for Hitler. We’re still fighting WWII, but the left, AKA useful idiots, refuses to understand that.
For me, we is family, here, in Siberia, Europe, Mexico and across the US. While not an Army brat,the only things missing from my childhood were Taps and Reveille. And, y’all catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Yeah, I lived in Penna for decades, and that mine-rat attitude strikes–we bust stones to be friendly. It’s a injun thing, like Kicking Bird, who to be friendly with Custer said, “You good sum-a-beech.” He was being complimentary, but most do not understand it.
Hasta, ‘mano. From here to eternity.
“The UK rejected the EU constitution because it doesn’t match ours. ”
Actually the Brits rejected the EU constitution because it doesn’t match THEIRS.
Donno. All I know is what I was told by brits. The EU const took more thn it gave and is cloudy enough it would be no trouble to dismiss it in any ’emergency’. The brits want something along the line of our const, which give far more rights to the people than anyone else’s. niio
I don’t know about Israel. There was a lot of speculation they were behind the Hawaii incident. England is scared to death of us. Is Canada doing well enough financially to help out much? I mean, aren’t we the only ones that can do whatever we want because we print our own unbacked currency? Not to mention! Even if people DID send aid, how much of it would the people who need it see? How much money sent to them did the people of Haiti see? How much money did the Katrina victims see? I’m sure the govt will set up some FEMA camps, and who knows WHAT will go on in them! And there are SO many people here spread out over such a large area. I don’t think there would be a shred of real help for we the people
Elaine,
I don’t know about Israel. There was a lot of speculation they were behind the Hawaii incident. England is scared to death of us. Is Canada doing well enough financially to help out much?
Which Hawaii incident? If you mean the false alarm missile attack, that was a pure bureaucratic foul-up.
I mean, aren’t we the only ones that can do whatever we want because we print our own unbacked currency?
Not really. Every sovereign country prints its own money, and do you really think the Euro or the Ruble are backed by anything solid. Money in all its forms is simply liquid barter that allows commerce to occur where a true barter system does not. It allows me to ply my engineering skills for credits denominated in dollars, and to trade those credits to others who do not need an engineer; but, have items they need to trade. Now in retirement, all of our income simply appears from different sources into our checking account, and then allows us to move some of those values to others for goods & services. We do carry some cash; but, the cash we use on a monthly basis is less than 5% of our income and expenditures. We often purchase items on a credit card, only supplying numbers, and when the card is due, we provide other numbers to pay off the monthly amount. All money is really a virtual representation of some kind of wealth.
You cannot easily do this with physical items whether it’s gold, silver, wampum, or tulip bulbs, since these are limited and thus would either inhibit the free market or make payments very difficult.
And we can do what we want; because, our free market system allows people to work hard and profit from their work, meaning that more work yields more profit and incentive to do yet more work.
I recall a quote from a former soviet worker who put socialism in the simplest of terms: “We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us”.
No incentive and no real building of wealth.
Not to mention! Even if people DID send aid, how much of it would the people who need it see? How much money sent to them did the people of Haiti see?
It depends on how the monies are sent. In Haiti and New Orleans, corrupt politicians siphoned off money for their own use; but, quite often, the aid does get to the people in need, generally in physical resources like food, water, & medicine.
I’m sure the govt will set up some FEMA camps, and who knows WHAT will go on in them!
What is a FEMA camp and where can you find them? The FEMA camp is an urban legend, and while FEMA may come into an area with resources, normally NGO’s like Red Cross setup and run the shelters.
I’ve been a volunteer with my local county EMA for 20years, and what we do is provide manpower, communications, and resources from water to generators for other entities who run the day to day help. Locally we have Red Cross and several large churches, whose facilities and congregations work with the displaced people.
We “loaned” a 500 KW generator to one of the counties recently stricken with the tornadoes, and it will provide enough power to keep a major hospital running until power can be restored.
And there are SO many people here spread out over such a large area. I don’t think there would be a shred of real help for we the people
In a sense you are right, since EMA (Federal, State, City, and County) all have limited resources and will triage the resources they have available to get to those who need it most. First is life safety of the responders, then the victims, and finally the property. This is why ”everyone” should have supplies on hand and be able to stay alive for at least 72 hours. All of the entities preach the 72 hour kit, since that is the realistic minimum time until help can arrive; but, a month or more will make you much safer.
If an EMP were directed against the U.S., assuming it was detonated above the center of the U.S. and was of sufficient magnitude to affect most of the U.S., as the article pointed out, most likely, the southern tier of Canada where the population is located would also be significantly affected.
It doesn’t matter that the Northwest Territories or the far northern reaches of Canada aren’t affected, the population there is so small that what aid they could render would be directed to the parts of Canada that were affected by the EMP.
TheSouthernNationalist,
Even though America gives more to this rock we live on than we get back, we still are hated in most places.
The Obama apology tour didn’t help much; but, I think the current administration is turning that around a bit.
When you live in a socialist democracy with high taxes and regulations on everything you do, like most of the E.U. it’s understandable that you would dislike those who have more freedom, since nagging them is easier and more comforting than admitting the bad situation in which you find yourself.
Ohio Prepper, the Europeans see a lot more of what is actually happening in our country than the Americans do. We are all brainwashed by MSM, and believe anything they tell us like good little sheep. The REST of the world sees the war crimes that Americans commit every day. We have been for many years killing people in countries when I didn’t even know we had been in there. How many people did we kill in Libya. And why??? That’s just one tiny example. WHY are we supporting the Saudis killing the people in Yemen? What did the people in Libya or Yemen ever do to us? Were they a threat to us? Maybe to the banksters . . .
Elaine,
the Europeans see a lot more of what is actually happening in our country than the Americans do. We are all brainwashed by MSM, and believe anything they tell us like good little sheep.
I rarely watch or listen to the MSM who have gotten even more outlandish and blatant in their fake news, lies, spin, call it what you will. Rarely do they report the news without their own political spin and agenda obviously being included.
The REST of the world sees the war crimes that Americans commit every day. We have been for many years killing people in countries when I didn’t even know we had been in there.
War crimes? Could you name a few?
If you really pay attention to enough sources, you can know in general where we are and what we are doing; but, it takes some work and will not be spoon fed to you.
How many people did we kill in Libya. And why??? That’s just one tiny example.
We had limited air strikes against Libya, under President Reagan in retaliation for Libyan agents who bombed a West Berlin nightclub that killed three people, including a U.S. serviceman, injuring an additional 200+. Colonel Muammar Gaddafi was a dictator who came to power by overthrowing the leadership of Libya, and was an existential threat to the west. Basically, he started it & we ended it.
WHY are we supporting the Saudis killing the people in Yemen? What did the people in Libya or Yemen ever do to us? Were they a threat to us? Maybe to the banksters
Yemen is a proxy war between the US (via Saudi Arabia) & Iran.(via the Houthi insurgency). Iran is threatening all of its neighbors, even those who are Muslim, since the Shia and Sunni are bitter rivals, and anything Iran can do to continue the chaos, is to their benefit as it detracts from our allies in the region, and allows them to continue creeping toward a nuclear weapon.
Terrorists with nukes would make 9/11 look like a picnic.
“We are all brainwashed by MSM, and believe anything they tell us like good little sheep.”
Perhaps you should speak for yourself and NOT everyone else. Thank you so very much. Have a great day!
The Ohio Prepper,
True, The folks that live in a socialist democracy shouldn’t hate us but rather take a page from our history and rise up to throw off the yoke of their oppression, and rebuild their country using our constitution as a template.
If “they” are so sure there will be an attack with an EMP then WHY are they pushing electric, and driverless cars?? That doesn’t make sense!!
THEY are not sure! It is only preppers that think we will have one. Everybody else (including Congress and the president) think it’s impossible. Otherwise they would have hardened the infrastructure
No one is sure of an EMP attack, and personally, I think it is very unlikely, but not impossible.
Any EMP attack is the same as a nuclear attack, and will be retaliated against in the same way by the attacked country. It would be the same as starting WW3, and Mutually Assured Destruction would be the result.
In retatliation, the EMP attacker will be immediately nuked off the planet, so that is a huge reason for them not to attack.
Far more likely, and even certain, is a global economic collapse, or widespread natural disasters.
I even think an asteroid collision with Earth is more likely than an EMP attack.
Those are what you want to be prepared for.
“Any EMP attack is the same as a nuclear attack, and will be retaliated against in the same way”
I’m not sure about that. For a start, an EMP attack is a lot easier to pull off covertly. Who do you retaliate against if you don’t know who attacked you?
Those are two unrelated issues. I have no idea why your suggesting that statement. Its unlikely that a emp will happen here. We are headed towards socialism and eventually a collaspe. Voting is pointless now
Auntie M,
If “they” are so sure there will be an attack with an EMP then WHY are they pushing electric, and driverless cars?? That doesn’t make sense!!
We are talking about 2 completely different ”theys”. , and technology needs to continue, unless we all are prepared to join with and live like the Amish.
A better question would be, “Why does the congress not allocate a measly $2B to harden the grid and stop talking & worrying about such things. We know how to do it; but, just don’t have the will or priorities.
Auntie M. The more we rely on electricity the harder we will be hit. The long range goal is destroy Capitalism, individual freedom, and the USA. After total destruction they will come in, set up socialism, and move on to the final goal of one world government.
I’m not even going to read this article. There has been enough discussions on EMPs here.
SERIOUSLY??? Exodus is not Christian. It is part of the Torah or something. The Christian texts are in the New Testament! We use the Old Testament, but there are few Christians who practice that. It used to be practiced all the time all over the place by all kinds of different people. How many Christians do you know who have slaves??? I’ll bet not ONE!!! I don’t know any who do
This is another of my comments that got moved around. I think this one was for Teri, who called Christians slaveholders!
Seriously, take your bad self somewhere people will care about your inconsiderate stupidity. This article is not about that. No one cares about your inability to make a decision about your faith or lack there of.
Actually, there are people that do care. But they are somewhere else and waiting for you to admit you have a problem. This thread is about EMPs and it is inappropriate to highjack this thread.
Please, go in peace.
This whole exchange is why I strongly dislike reading articles on anything prep related. 90% of the posts are political ranting and raving from people too ignorant to actually be able to contribute to the original topic.
I would be more concerned with CME’s and their possible effects. I’ll see most of you in hell afterwards.
CMEs are definitely a possibility too! So is a meteor/asteroid hit. Lovely things to look forward to, right? The problem is, it would be an easy fix to harden the infrastructure, and then people wouldn’t need to be nearly so worried about CMEs or EMPs. It would be a lovely way to cull the population to the 500,000 that the UN and all the humanist ”humanitarians” want for Agenda 21/30
HoseB,
This whole exchange is why I strongly dislike reading articles on anything prep related. 90% of the posts are political ranting and raving from people too ignorant to actually be able to contribute to the original topic.
I only see that here. There are other forums where preparedness ideas are exchanged and people respectfully both teach & learn from each other.
I would be more concerned with CME’s and their possible effects. I’ll see most of you in hell afterwards.
CMEs are not a real problem and are something dealt with every day. We have days of warning when one of these things rears its ugly head, and those days of warning allow satellite and other infrastructure operators time to make adjustments.
NASA keeps a close eye on the sun with the SOHO satellite and all of this is available for your edification @ http://spaceweather.com/
Ohio: Reasonable minds can have differing opinions especially on topics as overwhelming as a solar CME. I disagree that CMEs are not a problem. I believe that an X class CME will present a significant problem to the U.S. grid and our current way of life. I believe it isn’t a question of “if” but “when?” and “how large?”
From our experience in 1853, we know first hand what a CME will do to long electric lines and attached electrical equipment. As a matter of fact, I just recently read an account of railroad ties catching fire and railroad track being distorted by the heat generated by the Carrington Event. Something I had not heard of before.
We know that the large transformers are no longer manufactured in this country and even if they were, the lead time for a single large transformer is measured in years, not months.
As to whether the general public would be forewarned about a pending X class CME determined to impact all of earth or just North America is in the same category, in my opinion, as the When and How Large categories. Would weak-kneed politicians, fleeing to their hardened hidey holes bother to inform Joe and Jane Public that their lives are going to be changed unto the third generation? That the day after the CME bathes Gaia we will suddenly be transported back to the 18th century but without the folk knowledge and infrastructure of the 18th century?
In some regards, we will be better off. We know about bacteria and virus. We know how some diseases are transmitted. As a percentage of the population, most people do not know about herbal remedies or poultices. Few people know how to do any of the common barnyard chores that were common knowledge even among pre-teens in the 18th century. I think I am probably correct that by the time a boy was 10 or 11 he probably knew how to handle himself around cattle. He knew how to raise chickens and ducks. He probably could skin a small animal by himself and was safe lighting a fire and carrying a knife on his person. He might have been able to load and fire a muzzle loading firearm and shoot an arrow with a bow.
Unfortunately, I think most pre-teens and teenagers, perhaps even some adults have no idea how meat gets to the styrofoam tray in the supermarket.
I hope I am wrong, but my suspicion is that spaceweather.com, the noaa space website and every other website reporting on solar activity will mysteriously disappear.
As for satellites, they merely assist in tracking solar activity. There is nothing that i know of that they can do to alter solar activity. The energy involved is too massive to alter. The best we can do, but haven’t so far, is try to protect our infrastructure from damage.
I hope you are correct that a CME is nothing to be concerned about. However, unlike other life-changing events this website discusses which don’t have a certainty to them, I think a significant, damaging CME is a dead certainty.
“CMEs are not a real problem”
Oh yes they are. A CME took out chunks of Quebec’s electrical grid in 1989. Our national grid is in a pretty terrible state, and a big CME could trash it pretty much as hard as an EMP attack. Another potential problem is damage to communication satellites.
Claude,
A CME took out chunks of Quebec’s electrical grid in 1989. Our national grid is in a pretty terrible state, and a big CME could trash it pretty much as hard as an EMP attack. Another potential problem is damage to communication satellites.
The 1989 power grid incident was a problem as was the Carrington event in 1859; however, we have technology now that can mitigate those types of events with enough lead time and we also now have that lead time.
On December 2, 1995 the SOHO (Solar and Heliospheric Observatory) was launched and is used to keep a close eye on the sun, giving us days of warning when a CME is headed our direction. You can keep an eye on it yourself by visiting http://spaceweather.com where you can see current conditions or sign up for email or SMS text message alerts.
Politics is life, which is why Native Americans call it the second religion. You can’t even breathe today without some neolib trying to tax you for it. And, the ex-governor of Penna, Ed Rendell, tried to lay a five buck per head tax on Pennsylvanians, calling it a carbon tax. How long before some politician does that? Or taxes you food or ammo so high you can’t afford it? Nope, you can go to hell any time you want. I’ve been thru enough I don’t care if I die and have the scars to prove it. Hell? Nope. peace.
Big question I’ve been trying to get an answer for.
If an EMP hits this country or even takes out the planet. All electrical components are shorted out. What happens to all the nuclear power plants?????
How are the power plants going to cool the fuel rods down this is all done by robots and technology. It seems like within a few days all the nuclear power plants will start to melt down so it would be like a nuclear war or maybe worse. So how should a person prepare?
Tim, my understanding is that if the electrics go out, they will melt down. I think many of them have backup generators, but I don’t know how long they would last. Not long enough, unless it is a very limited area that is hit. I don’t know what the parts are, but there are really huge ones that are manufactured for us overseas, and I think it takes like 2 years or so to get them made and brought over, then there would be installation, etc. I don’t think any of their generators would hold out for that long. And where would they be getting the gas to run the generators? No electrics to run the gas tanks. What an ugly mess! The only way to prepare at all is for us to get together all the supplies we can and keep them secret from our neighbors (unless we have a like community) and to do a really good and thorough job of hardending the infrastructure (which ain’t happening)! But as for you and I? If you are anywhere near a nuclear plant, there’s not much you can do. Live near or have a bugout location as far from them as possible. That won’t stop wind drift, of course. The whole scenario is really terrifying!
Elaine,
my understanding is that if the electrics go out, they will melt down. I think many of them have backup generators, but I don’t know how long they would last. Not long enough, unless it is a very limited area that is hit.
The power plants may not melt down since they can be shut down; but, the components of the grid for distribution to the country will be severely damaged.
I don’t know what the parts are, but there are really huge ones that are manufactured for us overseas, and I think it takes like 2 years or so to get them made and brought over, then there would be installation, etc.
Those are the main transmission line transformers, each custom made for their position in the grid. The transformer that powers your house is a standard piece of kit, transforming 7200, 16000, or other voltages to the 240 center tap that gives you your 240/120 outlets.
The transformers in question may transform 765,000 to 345,000 or numerous other nonstandard voltage combinations, and also requires additional settings for phase control, all custom designed and built and built on ordering.
I don’t think any of their generators would hold out for that long. And where would they be getting the gas to run the generators? No electrics to run the gas tanks.
The fuel is mostly diesel; but, a limited supply. Power for pumping the fuel would come from the generator of course.
If you are anywhere near a nuclear plant, there’s not much you can do. Live near or have a bugout location as far from them as possible. That won’t stop wind drift, of course. The whole scenario is really terrifying!
I live 100 miles upwind of my closest plant, and I’ve been doing this too long to be terrified. We all plan what we can and hope for the best. As Louis Pasteur is said to have stated: “Fortune favors the prepared mind.” And I’m as prepared as I’ll ever be.
The worst part about a nuclear meltdown is you really don’t see the results until it’s too late. With a nuclear war you know that all major cities will be destroyed or be burning. With a nuclear meltdown you’ll just see smoke and fire in the distance and that is it at that point it’s too late radiation will be everywhere especially with the wind currents jetstream. The best place to be would be underground in a bunker leadline if possible
Elaine: The electrical parts are called transformers. The tall towers you see going across country high in the air are transmitting electricity at very high voltages, too high for you safely use in your home or office. Transformers step down the voltage to safe voltages.
Consider electricity like water in a pipe. The longer your hose the more pressure you need in order have a useable quantity at the end of the hose. If the 1″ or 1 1/2″ supply line to your house was what was in the middle of the street, all the single story houses on the street would only get a trickle of water. Two story houses wouldn’t get any water pressure at all on the second floor. If you have a second story toilet, you would have to carry water in buckets to flush your second story toilet.
The line in your street is at least a six inch line perhaps even eight or ten inches in diameter. The service line to your water meter is probably one inch or inch and a half. The water line from the meter to your house is 3/4 inch. The water supply lines throughout your house are 1/2 inch. In order to operate effectively most homes need water pressure at 60 psi. Much higher than that and you wear out seals much quicker and some appliances like washing machines and dishwashers. Much lower than that and you will think you are taking a shower from a watering can. You might only get a trickle out of a faucet on the second floor.
I may be incorrect, but I believe electricity is transmitted across country at 32,000 volts. That is much too dangerous to have coming to houses. The wiring in your house would have to be so thick in order to carry that voltage that you wouldn’t be able to bend it to go around corners.
Transformers reduce that voltage down to useable current. But it can’t be done in one step. Transformers large enough to handle the cross-country voltage are huge. Some of them are too big to be carried on our roads. They are also quite expensive and so there are no spares sitting in a warehouse somewhere. Those boxes you see hanging on electric line poles are neighborhood transformers. Like water in the line, 110 volts or even 220 volts are not enough current to service a neighborhood, so voltage comes in at 440 or 880 to the transformers and is stepped down. Those are still expensive (try getting electricity run out to your rural property and see how much all that apparatus costs.) and again, with the large numbers — just count the number of transformers in your neighborhood — if they all go out simultaneously, it will take years to replace them.
In addition, thanks to certain groups raising concerns about the chemicals used in transformers, manufacturing of large capacity transformers has become unfeasible in the United States, hence, manufacturing is done overseas, mainly by our BFFs, The Chinese. Big transformers are special order items and take a considerable period of time to fabricate.
Now suppose Crazy Man Kim decides to EMP the U.S. China, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran and a couple other countries are the only friends NK has. How motivated do you think China would be to put a priority on transformers for the U.S. in the event we needed a bunch in a hurry?
So there in only a few paragraphs is the 72 page EMP report that was referred to last week. It is somewhat more complicated than that but I am not an electrical engineer or electrician by any means. My electrical experience is empirical: Do not put a screwdriver in a socket to see if it is hot!
left coast chuck,
I am a retired EE and your analogies with water are pretty good; but, there needs to be a few clarifications.
Water pressure (psi) is analogous to voltage and water volume (GPM) is analogous to current.
The water supply lines throughout your house are 1/2 inch.
Actually, mine are all ¾ inch, so I can flush the toilet with someone in the shower, and no one get scalded or frozen.
In order to operate effectively most homes need water pressure at 60 psi. Much higher than that and you wear out seals much quicker and some appliances like washing machines and dishwashers.
My well pump is set to 60 psi and with that ¾ inch plumbing, things are great.
I may be incorrect, but I believe electricity is transmitted across country at 32,000 volts. That is much too dangerous to have coming to houses. The wiring in your house would have to be so thick in order to carry that voltage that you wouldn’t be able to bend it to go around corners.
Cross country is typically 345,000 or 765,000 volts with one of the substations / switching stations for the 765,000 just 5 miles from me.
Transformers reduce that voltage down to useable current. But it can’t be done in one step.
Actually they reduce it down to a usable voltage and it could be done in a single step; but, that would be a huge and costly transformer.
Transformers large enough to handle the cross-country voltage are huge. Some of them are too big to be carried on our roads. They are also quite expensive and so there are no spares sitting in a warehouse somewhere.
They can be carried on the road; but, it’s a really big production, involving a big slow truck, with special routes taking into account the height of the overpasses and the weight limits of the bridges, and often with a police escort.
Those boxes you see hanging on electric line poles are neighborhood transformers. Like water in the line, 110 volts or even 220 volts are not enough current to service a neighborhood, so voltage comes in at 440 or 880 to the transformers and is stepped down.
Actually the primary for those transformers is typically something between 2300 and 16000 volts, with many running down city streets operating at 7200 volts.
The single transformer that serves my property uses a 16000 volt primary with a 240 volt center tapped secondary, giving me both 240 & 120 volt circuits.
Ohio: Thanks for the clarifications. As I mentioned a little earlier, my electrical expertise basically is: Don’t test for a hot circuit by putting a screwdriver blade in the receptacle.”
Yeah, voltage equals water pressure; amperage equals number of gpm. Sorry that wasn’t clear in my post.
I had no idea voltages on the high line transmission lines ran that high or even that our local neighborhood voltages ran that high. No wonder birds turn into crispy critters when they manage to short out one of those lines.
left coast chuck,
Ohio: Thanks for the clarifications.
No problem. That is of course why we come here, to both teach & learn from each other.
As I mentioned a little earlier, my electrical expertise basically is: Don’t test for a hot circuit by putting a screwdriver blade in the receptacle.”
I understand, and while my electrical expertise is rather high, there are no doubt areas where I am plumb ignorant, and people like you could probably school me.
Yeah, voltage equals water pressure; amperage equals number of gpm. Sorry that wasn’t clear in my post.
No need to be sorry, sometimes an obvious clarification for some is assumed by others. Having taught electronics over the past 3+ decades, mostly training new ham operators, things I once thought obvious were clarified to me, often with a question from a student who didn’t understand what I had ”clearly explained” LOL.
I had no idea voltages on the high line transmission lines ran that high or even that our local neighborhood voltages ran that high. No wonder birds turn into crispy critters when they manage to short out one of those lines.
Yep, I saw a photo some years ago after a short blackout, of the 5-6 foot long black snake that had crawled into a substation and managed to drop across several of the phases. The photo displayed the pieces of snake laying on the ground in the substation yard.
Back to the water analogy. To deliver a specific large amount of water, you need a really big pipe that can deliver a large flow rate in GPM at low pressure, or a smaller pipe with a lower GPM and higher pressure.
In electrical circuits, we also have what is known as IR loss (Current & resistance) that chews up power in the form of heat. Power is calculated based on current and resistance, irrespective of voltage; but, it is also calculated based on voltage and current, so raising the voltage, lowers the current and we get less heat.
We think of a wire as a short circuit; but, when you are talking about miles of wire, that little resistance adds up and with hundreds or thousands of amperes, even a little resistance chews up power by heating the wires.
the Darwin Awards are always waiting for the next adventuresome soul.
The materials are around. As is the equipment. The rods are kept in water tanks because they will be used later on, after they have cooled.
I believe that if/when the power goes off and it is clear that it will not be coming on anytime soon that the operators will simply fill-in and mound over the tanks with earth. This will, at the least, reduce the radiation. Since the rods are in the tank, the radiation will be going straight up until the rods melt through the bottom of the tank, if they in fact do so. Still, the radiation will be contained.
In the unlikely event an explosion takes place in a tank, due to unforeseen factors, the radiation will still be contained for the most part. It will not be like a nuclear weapon where millions of tons of dirt and rock have radioactive material fused to them, that are thrown miles into the air, and take weeks or months to come down.
Just my opinion.
Look at basic nuclear physics 101, nuclear rods your rods are close together which produces heat when submerged underwater re-create steam the steam turned the turbines which runs to generate the excess steam goes into the cooling towers which condenses back into water falls back into a separate doing pot so when all the water has evaporated out of the tanks that’s where you get a nuclear milk. And if you decide to mount it all up with dirt and soil you have to have machinery strong enough to push it. And to my recollection almost every piece of construction equipment today has electronics in it . Fuel injection electric starting solenoid all of this is except a bowl to an EMP surge. So who is going to get out with shovels and fill the hole with earth?
Tim,
If an EMP hits this country or even takes out the planet. All electrical components are shorted out. What happens to all the nuclear power plants?????
First of all, not all components are damaged and they are not shorted; but, overloaded and burned out.
The power plants are built with some mitigation; but, loss of power from the grid, would force them onto their internal generators, for which there is a limited supply of fuel. They might be able to be shut down without a meltdown; but, it would depend on too many factors to discuss here.
How are the power plants going to cool the fuel rods down this is all done by robots and technology. It seems like within a few days all the nuclear power plants will start to melt down so it would be like a nuclear war or maybe worse. So how should a person prepare?
It will take more time than a few days and will not be like a nuclear war, since there will be no real destruction of infrastructure.
How you survive is by being able to stay indoors and be self sufficient for as long as possible. Living far away and upwind from any plant would of course be an advantage.
If someone wants to refuse to help then they are selfish Idiots. PUTTING THEIR HATRED FIRST FOREMOST AND ABOVE ALL!
IF people felt that way in WWII….We would be speaking German and Japanese….
America has ALL WAYS been at IT’S BEST in IT’S time of need…. They pull together and are UNITED.
True enough there are always some that are Bad and Evil…But for the most part they are minor in the scope of things.
Listen to Charlie Daniel’s Band song “IN AMERICA”
As for the UN…..they would have their hands full in Africa. Remember The UN Troops are from another nations military…..Their impact on American soil
to keep the Peace might just turn into a shooting war…
The same goes for Troops from any other nation.
I am pretty confident China will..They have the manpower to back it up. They also want to spread their influence around the World.
China No doubt would send military as well to stop
the Hooliganism and theft…. and general peacekeeping. That could definitely lead to trouble…
Saudis would no doubt send cash.
I would be surprised if Iran did not make an offer of some sort…
UK France and Italy and Spain would no doubt be doing whatever they possibly can.
South Korea.Japan and Germany. could send new vehicles including semis for transportation and other equipment…..Generators and whatnot.
Naval Vessels from all over because they can produce power and fresh water and medical with surgical rooms
Russia probably would or could possibly go to war in Europe……or reclaim the former countries of the USSR…… Then we have a whole new ball game,
I have posted this before but it seems to be continued to be ignored. There is some good info in it!
Trump signs executive order to make America greater than EMPs
Order combines hardening against mythical high-altitude attack with space weather readiness.
SEAN GALLAGHER – 3/27/2019, 3:37 PM
Yep. Russia is having small fights with Canada over Arctic oil. Canada was forced to arm the Eskimos, who patrol constantly all winter and report Russian activity. If Russia wanted a serious war, something they do not do unless all odds are in their favor, they would overrun Canada. they’re infrastructure is not based as ours is, on commuters and gadgets, but human minds and manual labor. Yes, they have what we have, but they can fall back to horse and dog sled fast. That’s how they keep China out of Siberia and outer Mongolia. In addition, there’s talk of all men over the age of 12 having to take some form of military training, like Switzerland does. Like we used to. Good post, thank you.
This is really a great discussion topic (thank you for bringing it up), but really off-topic as it is mostly conjecture. Or maybe it is, in order to generate discussion.
Consider that if the North American Hemisphere were hit by a EMP or CME, more than just our Continental US would be affected. And Significantly. A multi year grid down event would create a great opportunity for a non-hostile but non-friendly nation (read this as either China or Russia) to invade under the guise of offering help. No shots would or could be fired, because the good old USA would be incapable of firing those shots either because of physical inability, or lack of command and control or decision processes. Should a surviving government be able to respond to a foreign offer of help, it would be from a position of desperation rather from a position of power and control.
With or without US Governmental approval, under the guise of “we’re going to help you”, foreign forces with hardened transporters could deploy to our shores and start providing repair capability while establishing beachheads and moving inland to expand their “help” and influence. Yes, this scenario is taken directly out of the “One Second After” series, one of the most thought provoking series of books I’ve come across yet. There would simply be no way to stop them as a result of the devastation that the EMP did to our communications and power systems.
Picture this: Fleets of ships arrive on our shores, unchallenged, and start a beach assault, unloading not shooters, but self propelled vehicles with new generation power and communications systems, ready to help us generate power and communicate again. No guns, simply people and equipment. Fast forward 12-24 months, and now we have LOTS of NGO organizations, foreign nationals, and foriegn military units operating autonomously on our soil, and we have no ability to control or remove them.
The “nice” endgame is that this country pays the tab for services rendered, everybody lives and goes home, and all is restored to normal. The more realistic endstate is that those foreign forces establish a permanent presence to provide continued operational support to the infrastructure that they have provided, and they bring their families, additional laborers and technicians, and essentially colonize our country through an authorized presence, by US governmental support and by financial compensation.
Like I said, this is a great discussion topic, but not very valuable in my preps. I always assume no saving angel, and you’re on your own or with some limited close like-minded brothers and sisters. Anything else is gravy, which usually has strings attached.
No. They will make us fend for ourselves, because trump has been horrible to those who can help.
Lisa,
No. They will make us fend for ourselves, because trump has been horrible to those who can help.
Can you back up these assertions with facts?
If you mean that unlike Obama he’s not on an apology tour and wants our allies to act on their contracted obligations, then maybe that is horrible.
For instance NATO treaty signees are supposed to contribute 2% of GDP to their NATO military support, and since many were not, Trump called them on it. Many have now made a commitment to live up to their obligations.
In answer to the question asked in the title of this article:
‘If An EMP Hits The US, Will Other Countries Help Out?’
I do not believe there will be any that can help. Even Canada will be affected so greatly that they will be hard pressed to take care of themselves.
If any do attempt to help, they will not be successful. A full-on EMP attack, such as a HEMP device (or several to get the odd bits that the main one that would probably be over the border between North and South Dakota, a bit west of Minnesota would not affect), would so destroy the infrastructure of the US, that travel would be extremely difficult, communications nearly impossible, and the risks to manpower attempting to get the necessities to the people of the US would all be too great for a successful mission to occur, if one was attempted.
Just my opinion.
When Katrina hit, people in Bangladesh nailed cans to posts with the message, America always helped you. Now America needs help. One of the most poverty-struck nations in the world donated to help us, while wealthy nations turned their backs. The poor always help the needy, those hurting more than they. Others only help themselves.
When the SHTF I am going to be far away from all you political and religious true believers because it looks like you’re all going to make a great slaughter of each other. I’ll be living out what’s left of my happy Pagan life…
If the U.S. is devastated by an EMP or some other event there won’t be much help because the Entire World Economy will collapse without us.
My concern is that the Russian military and our own military, with nuclear arsenals unaffected by national collapse, are going to go crazy with paranoia over who now has the least to lose and why not fire off your missiles first?
Thermonuclear war is not the hoped for help, sorry.
China is on the verge of melt-down. Every province wants independence, they were once free nations. then there’s the religious rebellion at grassroots level. China is in the middle of a depression that makes FDR’s look like a picnic. They tried to corner every food market they could and lost. Anything not protected will fry. Military is ready, and Navy is putting on converters that rake plastic from the oceans, then convert it to oil to burn. Neolibs have been mocking trump over EMPs for a week now. Europe? forget Europe. Terrorists hate Europe far more than they did us. Note most sites hit now are atheist places. They see Europe are one giant blasphemy, along with racial hate for colonizing them. We’re trying to get family in Europe to relocate to the US. niio
Enjoy that pagan life. Remember, tho, most pagans (Europe and Asia) practice cannibalism and you do not need to be the most welcome guest at the feast! Islam, itself, allows for it. If the worse comes to pass, I hope we give them the worse heartburn known to mankind since god invented habaneros to punish sinful Yankees.
If EMP strike happens, and it’s almost guaranteed the way the Left is acting, forget Europe. US, the coasts are toast is best-guess scenario, from Canada down to Mexico. It was believed if nuclear strikes occur, it would set off a chain reaction, say, if one hit close to a major fault line. Most nuclear power plants are along rivers, which often follow those lines. America has one great beauty, that we become one people in the event of a disaster. Once the smoke clears, the conservatives are always in control and the enemy rotting in the fields.
Me? I’ll stick with Jesus. After all, he’s the world’s most famous redneck. who else could take a whip to a bunch of armed men and run them ragged but a redneck? Niio
“Remember, tho, most pagans (Europe and Asia) practice cannibalism”
That’s just not true. Sure, most of us here are Christian, but this isn’t a religious website; it’s a prepper one, and there’s no need to tell offensive lies about a fellow prepper’s religious beliefs.
Yes, I did find the comment from a certain man terribly offensive, so I gave the truth. Yes, cannibalism was very common in pagan Europe and Asia. Cannibalism is far more common in the US than we’re told. Dahmer was the tip of the ice berg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibals_and_Kings And to much more. When Charlemagne invaded Saxony, he forced slavers out and if anyone was found with human bones in the kitchen midden, he hung them. It was how they delayed the invasion of Islam into eastern Europe. A stall, nothing more, but it held them back for several centuries. Look at how popular shows and movies are today that help desensitize it. Vampirism, werewolves, zombies. Yes, a lot of us were offended so I warded off a war by busting stones. I do not lie. there’s no need to. niio
“Canada, as their culture is closer to ours and they are more dependent on electricity than Mexico is.”? Really? Most Mexican live in large cities that depend on the grid, there are 132,181,986 of them and 37,280,000 Canadians. (3 times + more). Canada has a lot of areas with very low population, Mexico has a lot of areas with high population. Plus, accept it or not a large portion of the western and southern US was part of Mexico until the late 1848. And most of that area still has a lot of people of Mexican descent and still uses Spanish names all over the place. We have little in common with Canada, asides from the language. A few years ago Canada made it almost impossible for people from the US to move there, by changing their immigration laws. You can look it up. In spite the current issues, Mexico has been the one nation with the most interaction with the US. Hint: HISTORY and current issue. Canada and the US are not best buddies. As to food, get this CHINA stopped buying farm land, they now rent farm land in the US, grow crops, using the latest technology, for EXPORT TO CHINA. So you can bet we get to keep a lot less than 85%. Lets add to that the fact that the US is one of the most hated nations in the planet, in part due to the “we are the leaders of the planet” attitude. Even many European nations are not into us or the US. Add even more, such as the fact that people in the US know zero about most of the planet, asides from the “superiority complex” that makes people here underestimate, most people in the planet. I suggest way more research before making silly comments, while pretending to be teaching people something. In the case of an EMP directed towards the US, you can bet that our friends are going to be few and far between. Plus, our power grid is so antiquated that it can be brought down with a few explosives in the right places, by people already in the US waiting to strike. Unfortunately for Texas, their better, more modern grid is attached to the other two pieces of garbage, so even that one will collapse as the domino effect takes place. You can bet that a lot of vultures are getting ready for the pickings. Please get your facts correct IF YOU WANT TO HELP instead of tiptoeing through the tulips. Some people amaze me (in a bad way). My suggestion for everyone, if you can’t afford the latest technology, at least get yourself some cheap solar lights at the Dollar Tree, so you can take them inside at night and not trip over the dog. You can bet I have 1/2 dozen ways to cook with no power, plenty of blankets, etc.
Carmen: I don’t visit large cities in the Tierra Hermosa, but smaller towns and so on. While the hotels are electrified, most of the homes use oil lamps or candles. The people, even in the cities, get up early and go to work. They come home 10 or 12 hours later, cook on wood stove or hornos, and a few hours after dark, go to bed. Kerosene is used, not electric because even many who have it do not want a bill. People want to stay ready for the worse. I think it was less than a year after Edison electrified a street in Wilkes-Barre, PA, that Saltillo had much of the city electrified, and Hermosillo shortly after. Then Mexico City. Be nice. we’re not the enemy, but the socialists who destroy Mexico and are at work here.
Major disagreement, no, Mexicans are coming back to Native America. Most of those here, over half the population, will not speak Spanish outside the house. If you feel suicidal, go to any Native American community either side of the border and tell them they belong to Mexico. Today, starting in the East, Hispanics are attending pow wows. It’s not common out here yet, but it’s getting there. The PRI, which worked so hard with the DNC to destroy us was horrified that so many came out to celebrate across Mexico being Native American.
Agreed, our best friend in the West is Mexico. Perhaps our best friend in the world. Yet, a lot of Mexicans want Trump to build the wall to stop the drug lords and slavers.
We are leaders of the world. Hollywood makes a movie, all around the world, movie houses are copying it. New fashions, same, most new tech comes from us. The idea we’re hated is not true. It’s urban legend left over from the 60s. Governments yes, they hate America. Most people see us as friends. Americans traveling in Mexico feel safer there than they do at home. The people watch out for us and only a fool would dis them. Always, why is Bush doing this, or Obama that? And I’m honest, and they frown, wondering how stupid leaders can be. Is Bill Clinton a maricón? Yep. He said so enough times and that shocks people. Then I ask, did Ricky’s agave get harvested? All smiles, they wink. He has a good hand with the cooker 😉
I like the posada, not a big-name hotel. You sit in the kitchen listening to cooks gossip and compliment them on the food. It’s always, “Ai, yes, that Rick, he takes good care of the goats, and raises the best lambs.” Or, the coffee and they can tell you who raised it down towards the coast. Eggs, posole, even who supplied the firewood. Everything as local as possible and that’s intelligent. That’s preppers.
If we go, so will Canada and so will much of Mexico. People have to work, and few people other than the rural folks bother to store for the future. Did you see the link I posted to make a cheap rocket stove? They’re getting popular south of the border. Same with solar ovens. If SHFT hits here, I can always run south to Creel, in Chihuahua, and some family there. Good post! You need to write more often. niio
Wow, you figured out that Mexicans can watch the internet and build things that will help them when the next global Great Depression shows up. LOL (joke). Of course there are people that are not into the latest in technology and continue practices of their ancestors. And who said tell Native Americans (actually First Nation people) they belong to Mexico? They were here before the continents were named America, unlike the Europeans above the the border (to exclude the Europeans that gave Spanish names to a lot of things including the two continents). Hint: Mexico did not exist either, when the First Nation people were the only ones in both continents. My wish is that the few remaining in the US, stop with the “this tribe, that tribe” and accept that they are all one people and focus on bettering their lives and stop with the pity party that keeps them enslaved (especially the alcohol). Ask, me why I buy one case of beer once an year and stop drinking when it is all gone. Hint: alcoholics in the family. Of course, Mexico will go with Canada, that is my point. Will some people make it, sure. I live in the states and you can bet I have 1/2 dozen ways to cook with zero electricity, hint my property line is marked by 100 year oaks that drop branches, that I keep stacked in case my rocket stove, become my main cooking appliance. I can leave them to my heirs. And, I transformed my yard into a food forest, with all kinds of fruits, wild edible and perennial vegetables. I’m Hispanic, I have a brain and I speak English plus Spanish, if anyone here in Minnesota spoke it, plus just about every other European language and I understand Korean. I don’t have to run anywhere, and I live in growing zone 3, which means it is dang cold in the winter. People will be going south not north. It bothers me that people think that somehow being of European descent (which I am also) make them more intelligent than people who could predict all kinds of natural event by watching the stars. (Actually, based on the NSA website, my particular group of Hispanics has the highest percentage of graduate and post graduate degrees of any group of US citizen and people look down their noses at us. You go figure.) I want good people to survive, the rest will be running around like chickens with their head cut off, committing self suicide. I suggest to people who don’t have a row of 100 year oaks, that every time they go on a walk to pick up any branches they run across. Nice talking to you.
Actually, the Vikings where on this soil way before any indian traveled out of china/india and crossed the bearing straite, the Vikings found no challenge here so they didn’t stay but scientists have found cave drawings and bones that predate any indian being here.
Snake, is that so? You must be talking about the “other” vikings, because based on reality, the Vikings did not exist that far back. By the way, it is now known that many of the ancestors of the so called “indians” came west from Asia and not through the Bearing sea. There is proof all over the North and South American continents and the Caribbean, that at least some wrote in ANCIENT HEBREW. In other words, the so called Lost Tribes mention in the Old Testament. Which explains how they manage to survive the ice age, while “walking south”. Said, evidence is all over, including caves. Hint: people could sail long before the Viking came into existence. And it is also known that before they showed up in North America, they attacked the monks of Lindisfarne, stealing maps the monks were copying, from maps that were held in the Library of Alexandria, as well as their sailing “technology”. They left North America, because the people who were there ALREADY, who call themselves First Nation, proved mightier than the mighty Vikings. While running away, the mighty Viking forgot to take the women and children, who later were taken in by the people who beat the cowards, which is why there were “white” people in North America, after that. Get real, if they had found no resistance, they would have remained, being that North America, had better weather conditions and was WAY, WAY larger than Viking land. As to some of the ancestors of the First Nation, coming from China, probably they lived in both the area next to the Pacific Ocean and the Atlantic Ocean. I would guess those sailed east. Let me guess you are not Kurt Russel or his character Snake Plissken. You should have called yourself Leif to make it more believable. By the way, Christopher Columbus also used ancient maps and said so. He never claimed he discovered anything and he did not even set foot in either of the Americas, he stayed in the Caribbean. So that claim that the Vikings got here first is only true, because Columbus never did. Reminds me of an old song we used to sing at school when I was a young kid. I did change some words: “We fired our arrows and the Vikings kept coming, there wasn’t as many as there was a while ago. We fired once more and they begin to run on down to the ocean, back to Greenland.” So much for real HISTORY vs legends. The Viking were tough, they should have stayed in Europe fighting weaker people. Did your version of history come to you in a dream? My hobby, history, especially WAR history. I am a storage cabinet of facts. You dear child are not. Maybe when you get to be as old as me.
According to Scandinavians, their Viking ancestors were the last Asian horde to be run out by the Chinese, maybe 500 AD. The norther island in Japan still has the people who didn’t leave. My ancestors came her as long as 20,000 years ago, long before there was a Chin tribe, and splint in Siberia. Some went east, others south to become Asians and others. India peoples are all Caucasians, not related to Asians. India does have Dalits, who are black, but still Caucasians. The Vikings came to the Americas via Iceland and Greenland, and settled as far south as New England. There, they were so barbaric even the pacifists rose up and drove the men out or killed them. The women and kids stayed, of course, and probably preferred us to their slaver husbands. Here, women had the vote and were respected, not just brood mares. Children, any child, was treated as someone who would be a respectable adult and spoiled rotten. So, any Vikings around who taught us anything but war are an urban legend. They did trade for copper from Isle Royal, in Lake Superior, I’m told. They also traded with Iberians like Columbus’ uncle, who made regular trips north for furs and unicorn horns. With the Portuguese who fished for cob on the Grand Banks and kidnapped so many of the Red Paint people, the last few starved to death. Like gas, the past has passed. I’m an American and my ancestors of all races fought hard to make this nation and to keep the neolibs from selling out to the highest bidder. Fact check, not just accept anyone’s word. That’s wisdom, and I know you’re a smart man or you’d not be a prepper. BTW, Kurt Russel is a Cherokee.
The Vikings were here in North America and KNOWN to have spent time. There is a known settlement in Nova Scotia and possibly in North Carolina. Viking Runes found in Minnesota and in Oklahoma, Viking coin found in at least one place.
I am not saying the Vikings were in what we call North America First…I am saying the Vikings did have am established presence LONG Before Columbus and the rest of the Europeans came along.
WE ALSO KNOW THERE WAS NO SOURCE OF COPPER IN SUCH AMOUNTS IN Europe OR the Middle East TO SUPPLY The Egyptians and Europe n the Bronze Age….. The Purity of the copper ore in Michigan is extremely Outstanding and rare in the World.
Someone was mining copper in Michigan LONG AGO perhaps as long as 7K BC…. WE do know it was not the indigenous peoples since the did not believe in mining.
There is what appears to be an Ancient settlement that appears to be Mayan in Minnesota and one in Georgia.
The current people we refer to as Native Americans are NOT the First People. The Hopi refer to an older race before them. I think the Navajo do as well.
There is a theory that when Can killed Able and as cast out to find a wife…. and the Mark of Cain…..is that Cain and others left and ended up in South America….the theory that The Mark of Cain was Men having no facial hair… A genetic trait of the indigenous people we today call Indian or Native American.
The people in South America had a story of a White man with a long white beard and flowing White Robes had given them knowledge and taught them things and left them heading out to the ocean vowing he would return…The people had prophesied He would return around the same time the Spaniards showed up.
When the Spaniards got to South America… To The Native Peoples the Spaniards were White and they had beards.
The people gave them everything they asked of them and by the time they figured out the Spaniards were not Him, it as too late!
Now WHY did a race that did not have facial hair have a Legend/ Story with a man having a beard and carve statues with facial hair?
Numerous advanced Civilizations have come and gone in South America……There are carvings in South America with Negroid features…..again why are such statues with such features?
There is A LOT about so called “Modern” History…..we do not know or some of what we do think we know is wrong and parts ignored or unexplained.
I can recommend several good books if anyone is interested….
Nice to know that Columbus was telling and writing in his journals the truth, that is that he used ANCIENT MAPS to reach the Caribbean. Said maps were part of the documents that were stored in the Library of Alexandria, that were saved before the final destruction of it. But we also know that the Viking used maps that they stole from the monks of Lindisfarne, so they were not even remotely the first. We know that most of the people of the Americas have at least some Asian DNA, but the story of how they got here is truly convoluted. Who made the maps, we don’t really know, but I am guessing people who could sail back and forth to places like where the Library of Alexandria was located. Which was not Europe. I bet most books you can recommend are not accurate, because the truth has been hidden for so long, and it is now finally coming out. Bottom line, the Americas were populated for thousands of years, and people who have been here thousands of years have more right to the land than the new comers that tried to exterminate the people of mostly what we now know as the northern areas of North America, because the rest of the area still is mostly descendants of what they refer to as First Nation, which predate the name America, for both continents by thousands of years. As to the older race, based on the most recent findings, structures all over both continents and the Caribbean, huge mountain side carvings, as well as legends, we don’t really know what to call them. Maybe we could go by The TALL People? And yes, I have seen one of the mountain side carvings so I’m not just going by what I hear. I’m a skeptic who has seen the light, so to speak. As to your question, because people all over the planet have had the ability to sail the seas and they had advanced technology. European prejudice has made every one from the past into ignorant people. (I am mostly European.) If we have another WW and we end up blowing ourselves, the few survivors with be some day treated as savages by their descendants. To make it clear, by “European prejudice”, I am mostly referring to a particular part of Europe. Not to all of Europe. Ich habe in Deutschland gelebt und mag Deutsche. So it is not that nation, it’s the other.
With respect to your knowledge, and it’s good, you missed a few points. Native American copper was found in every grave site and was one of the major reasons colonists dug into mounds. I live in the middle of copper country in Arizona. Spaniards coming here found mines already in operation. Same with gold, and silver. They found bronze implements and toys made of gold such as wind spinners, which has to be smelted before you can fill a snail shell or conch shell. We also used the lost wax method a lot. Long before the Vikings left Asia, possibly before the Shepard Kings colonized Europe, west Africans a believed to have traded for gold and slaves in the Caribbean. Given the heavy traffic up and down the Mississippi then, presumably for copper. Please note, no artifacts in any European style were found made of copper. Steel, yes. Copper, yes, one coin but it was struck in Sweden. No Viking bronze or brass, and both were vital to most peoples.
https://eos.org/articles/miners-left-pollution-trail-great-lakes-6000-years-ago
https://eos.org/articles/miners-left-pollution-trail-great-lakes-6000-years-ago
https://copperculture.homestead.com/
http://www.peachstatearchaeologicalsociety.org/index.php/20-copper-artifacts/316-old-copper-culture
Native Americans not believe in mining? According to PC redskins (skin for hire, stands around the fort and other backstabbing liberals), yes. But, In the aria of Jeansville, PA, Native Americans were mining coal to use to make metal tools and ornaments before a metis took a load of coal to Philly (the rocks that burn), and was arrested for trying to scam people. He proved it but coal still didn’t become important till close to the War Between the States.
Nope, according to Bible scholars, Cain traveled to the east of Eden, to Nod, and settled there to form a nation. He didn’t have to travel far, because the Bible states that anyone who killed him for his murder would be punished by God. The Land of Nod would likely be Babylon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Nod The mark of Cain was to protect Cain from people seeking revenge. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/mark-cain/ The mark was placed after Cain was cursed, as a blessing from God.
Where there Jews in ancient Americas? So far as we know, only after the Diaspora began, coming in with west Africans.
Facial hair here was a lot more common than PC wants to acknowledge. As Native American men grow into old age, we shave or, like the ancestors, start to pluck the ‘dog hairs’ (sorry, but that’s what whiskers are called) out, and that included eyebrows. http://beardstyle.net/native-americans-cant-grow-facial-hair/ People who develop beards are often called demoniacs, but that came about under the Spaniards’ cruelty. I can grow a beard, have a mustache, and know a lot of folks who do, who do not claim any European ancestry. A lot of peoples here used to consider it a sign of wisdom, because whiskers came with age. I had this discussion with friends who are LDS and showed them. Yep, we’re still friends and still help each other. The mark of Cain is known to be a mark of blessing, not a curse.
Navajo and Hopi neighbors both talk about an ancient civilization, which the Hopi were once part of. The word in Navajo is Anasazi. Years ago, I was at a cow camp up near the big rez, and were were passing the jug. A Zuni kid gave Mexicans on the crew a bitter look and told them, you f–cked us once and we f–cked you over. You came back with the bearded demons (Spaniards) and we screwed you again. Go back to f–cking Mexico, witches, ‘cause next time we’re going to leave your souls for coyote to eat. And they do. Word is, the Aztec (meshica) wandered in from the northwest begging for help. The people did and were glad because they were having trouble with head-bangers (Navajo and Apache) coming in from the northeast. But, the Aztec did a lot of evil and caused God to curse the land. The Great Drought lasted over a century until the Aztec were driven out. The Anasazi Confederacy went as far south as close to Mexico city, and as far west as Yuma. It came out of the Hohokam culture over 2,000 years ago and died about 800 AD. Those are the peoples-who-came-before. Agriculture as we know it today came from the peoples in central and southern Mexico, who were building pyramids and used writing long before the folks up here. And people here traded copper south long before the Hohokam existed. https://books.google.com/books?id=CZJODwAAQBAJ&pg=PT114&lpg=PT114&dq=earliest+use+of+copper+pre-columbian+arizona&source=bl&ots=psj95KME-r&sig=ACfU3U29TNHRrj0AW1H7k89tzoxjw55FuA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNndux6c7iAhWKq54KHVk8Dm4Q6AEwE3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=earliest%20use%20of%20copper%20pre-columbian%20arizona&f=false
Yes, Vikings knew about our copper. They traded for it. Because the Viking sagas are accurate and were recorded when the Vikings adopted Christianity, we know they were here, but not till long after the Anasazi Confederacy broke up. Their own sagas show the route they took from Asia and the local history of their birthplace shows why they had to leave. No sign of Viking homes are west of New England, and they always built where they went, with their own style. Had they been able to, they would have mined the copper for themselves. And, there was no way their kings would have lost a treasure like that. They never did. Same with gold from Dalonega, they would have settled among the people and built their own homes. If they built south of Woden, Mass, and it’s possible, they left no sign, and they always left sign.
Peace to you. We’re supposed to be family here. I’m not bickering but going on what we know from legends and science, and science is bearing out the legends. Even the Bible, though most scientists refuse to admit it 🙂
red and CarmenO
Thank you both for the info some knew some did not. I would like to meet up with ya’ll sometime an have some long talks
Something you both have not mentioned while all your discussions about “Who was where first?” is you have completely ignored the question of “WHEN”. Everything Ya’ll have mentioned is recent History…with the possible exception of the Anasazi. remember those maps Columbus used? WHEN were the first made and WHO made them? Recent History Antarctica is only known to be an ice mass…….yet there is a map of the land under the ice and we now it was once green…and habitable.
The Books In have and recommend are about as thoroughly researched as I could get at the time. meaning before computers…..
CamenO
My books might surprise you. I don’t buy into the conventional view of History. I am interested in ancient places..Cities made of stone and abandoned…hat would be left of our current Civilizations a few thousand yeas from now? Besides plastic and toxic waste that is…rubber tires…maybe one or a few computers o cell phones in rare places..but people finding them have no idea of what it is or what it did/does o anything else.
For starters “The Habb Theory” by Professor Charles Habb .I am not saying I agree with all of it but it does make sense…..and it certainly explains A LOT.
“Fingerprints of the Gods” by Graham Hancock.
He has other works that are interesting as well.
“Sailing to Paradise: The Discovery of the Americas by 7000 B. C” by Jim Bailey
I am quite sure he is correct but people were here long before….
“Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of The Human Race” by Michael A.Cremo and Richard L. Thompson
Various items have been found all over planet including cities under the sea.one is of the coast of Cuba …They cannot be explained by what is accepted as Modern History. This book is about some of them. More of a research type book rather a book one would just sit down and read.
Habb’s Theory provides ONE explanation…
red
I as not aware of any indigenous people in North America using metal weaponry.
The copper you mentioned was traded South into what we call the Carolinas and possibly into Georgia and Florida. Mainly being used in decorations and jewelry. I have not seen any metal arrowheads/spearheads or tomahawks or hatchets or axes before the Europeans came along.
As far as other things such as knives I am not sure of…
Copper and gold are soft metals and easy to “manipulate” for lack of a better word.
So now we do know for a fact The Earth has changed over the years and no doubt will go through changes in the future..Definitely someone as traveling the World long before Antarctica became the South Pole…So how long ago did that happen? Such a change would wipe out every civilization on the face of the Earth…..
No, we were here as long as 20,000 years ago, if archaeologists are right. Metal work began about the same time it did in the rest of the world, but free iron was rare, so it wasn’t common.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_America
Where tin was found, bronze was made.
A grave on the west shore of Alaska MAY be 10,000 years old and tobacco seed was found in it. We know tobacco was being used over 12,000 years ago, and may have been the original domesticated plant.
Donno about the rest. I have archaeologists in the family and know Native Americans who are, non-relations. Too my emphasis is put on the mystery of Native America, and not enough on simply asking the right way. with Rich Fisher asked what happened to the Anasazi, he did so with respect and was answered with respect, not just blown off as too many arrogant putzes have been. First, he was given a shocker, the Anasazi never died out. A major drought killed the drops in the valleys, but the people survived. there was some cannibalism at first, and then later, because of anemia caused by a lack of red meat. the Zuni and all the rest are the children of the Great Cities. In Mexico, thanks to Mel Gibson and Apocalypto, we’re beginning to decipher the Mayan glyphs. One bad side effect is now sitting south of the border demanding the right to enter the US at will with Mexico helping, not stopping them.
At each turn, there are people too eager to make a buck. Science is no different. You either make a name or be a wallflower doing drudgery in the lab. A lot of people were sued for using names and former nations they had no right to to promote their work. that’s always true of all peoples. But, the only pre-Colombian graves found have been all Native American. Columbus knew North America was here. He was apprenticed to an uncle, a ship’s pilot, who traded with Iceland and Greenland for furs, seal oil, and unicorn horns (narwhal tusks). Pre-Colombian Europeans made contact. so did Africans and Asians. It’s possible Columbus, as a ships’s plot, had copies from all over, as well as reuters (pilot logs) . Pilots shared information, which is how a Protestant ship pilot (Adams) knew how to get to Cathay from Portuguese Roman Catholic pilots when their nations were officially at war.
Pole shifts! I can’t remember who said it, but it’s thought that every time we get nailed by a major rock, it causes a lot more ice to form on the North Pole, and that makes the wobble bad enough to tip the pole toward the sun. Atlantis! No one is sure where but pretty much everyone in ancient times had a story about it. Noah’s Flood is may be about what happened to it. Who knows?!
I have to look up some of what you posted. Sounds interesting. Good post, thank you, yo-sem-ite`. niio
You are most welcome Mi Hermano.
Too me awhile to find this thread again had a lot of real life to deal with. I would lie to have more of this discussion with you in private and perhaps one day in person and share a bottle of good stuff and listen and learn from you.
Habb was the First one to talk of the Earth shifting on It’s Axis.
His Theory is that the Earth’s Surface shifts as the ice builds up on the poles. The last time the Earth shifted and for the First time the ice covered an entire continent making for the longest stable period in History.
I am trying to keep this as simple as I can to make it brief….He postulated that the surface pf the Earth is like an orange skin…..and the poles would shift over a period of time as ice built up on the poles and the heavier side would cause the surface of the Earth to shift/slip and tilt on it’s Axis around the whole World.
We know dinosaurs fossils being found in Wyoming and elsewhere …. We have ancient spearheads being used to hunt Mastodons and/OR Woolly Mammoths in Georgia.
In parts of Russia Woolly Mammoths/Mastadons were caught more or less Flash Frozen and supposedly people ate the flesh of them and there is talk of cloning them. The were found in such state that necropsies could be done on them and identify their stomach contents…….
There is a market for their tusks.
Back to Habb’s Theory….I cannot recall the exact number now either 12 or 14 . I THINK it is 12.
NOW this is where it gets sort of weird…..
Places like The Bermuda Triangle and all of the odd occurrences that happen there.
There are 11 OR 13 places like it all around the Globe.
IF one were to take a globe and skewer it….all the way through all of those places are directly opposite and each of them pass within roughly 20-22 Degrees within the center of the Earth meaning such places were the Poles…….
AGAIN I cannot say whether I believe his Theory….. I WILL SAY his makes a lot sense and brings at least some plausible answers to the table……PERHAPS answers that have never been considered or have been ignored……..
There is much of North American MODERN Man/ Humans have never set foot on.
I agree so far what we have discovered about our past dates back 20K or so Years.
Fossil remains (among other things) in various places right here in the US of A discovered so far that we know about prove such.
I will not even try to dispute/argue//debate an of that.
I believe we go back further……MUCH FURTHER…. have no concrete or solid proof of such. I do believe the proof is there….either somewhere beneath the various oceans/seas/gulfs……or perhaps in other places……remaining to be uncovered.
Call me a “KOOK” or whatever you will! Those are my Beliefs.
SOME ONE drew those maps of Antarctica AND KNEW of the people and Flora and Fauna there, BEFORE it was covered with ice. WHEN was that moment in time and WHO were those individuals?
There is much I will not mention in an open forum but would be glad to share over a bottle/jug IF we could ever make such happen.
BTW have you ever heard the “Legend of Mu”. Not sure IF it is true but it is supposedly the Pacific version of Atlantis.
All the Best of All That Is Good Be With You and Yours.
Ich bin einer Dietchmann, my kin are mostly Pennsylvania git, ‘mano. I live in Arizona. Healthier here, given the hunger of politicians back in the Land of Taxes and Dead Dreams.
Heard of Mu, but no one has proof of it, unlike Atlantis. It would have sat right over an area we know is constantly shifting, some emerging, more disappearing into anti-faults. Atlantis may have been the Canary Islands. the place is said to have been outside the Gate of Hercules, which is Gibraltar. I’m hearing more about pre-Flood civilization in relationship to Atlantis.
Right now I’m going thru some SOB crap. Too much hospital time.
Habb’s theory is called a hypothesis, by geologists. NASA takes pole shifts seriously and I take NASA seriously 🙂 https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012-poleReversal.html
The Explorers Club, UK, imported a lot of mammoth meat and many got sick on it. An unknown malady, probably a bacteria that was extinct. I understand anyone eating elephant gets sick the first time so that may be it. Also, the Tibetan elephant is now believed to be a hairless mammoth. They can handle a lot of cold, where Indian elephants are fighting pneumonia and so on.
First I understand about real life issues being Hospital and other issues,
I wish you a full and speedy recovery and return to normal or better. God Speed!
My ancestors are mainly French and Irish. No German that I know of.
I was stationed in Arizona years ago and loved it there. Lots of beach but no ocean….beautiful country. The Superstitions, Mount Lemon…..Sabino Canyon Seven Falls Saquaro National Forest……and more! I loved it there.
“The Habb Theory” is the title of the book by Charles Habb. So I use the word theory from there He wrote the book in the 1960s I think.
From what I understood about his theory is that most geologist thought he was a “Kook” or a joke and none took him seriously or ignored him.
There is a lot of hard data that has been found and being found that cannot be explained. It has been and is being ignored and/or hidden because it does not fit into what is accepted History.
In ancient Hindu (?) texts advanced technology weapons including atomic weapons.
An ancient city was found in Pakistan or India that has high levels of radiation.
It has been said “Atomic glass” (yes I know it has another proper name) has been found and was sculpted into jewelry….Thousands of years ago.
I have not seen very many people acknowledge the poles shifting besides Habb. The evidence is quite clear the poles have shifted in the past. Where the poles were at one time all around the world All have the same unusual anomalies.
On Atlantis there are those that believe when the story was first written down, a decimal point was misplaced.
IF the writer (attributed to Plato) made that one simple mistake then where else did he make mistakes???
Atlantis was not just a city….it was/is a Continent.
One of the authors I have read Graham Hancock in his books postulated that Antarctica was/is Atlantis….
When the poles last shifted it became completely covered in ice.
We have maps we do not know when they were originally made or who made them. But they had to be made before the poles shifted.
There is no doubt of the sunken structures found off the coast of Japan or the sunken “city” off of Cuba.
It is getting harder and harder to suppress and hide such “objects” of History that do no belong or fit with what passes for accepted History.
Yosemite,
Everything Ya’ll have mentioned is recent History…with the possible exception of the Anasazi. remember those maps Columbus used? WHEN were the first made and WHO made them?
We pretty much know who made the Piri Reis map and when. The map is a world map compiled in 1513 from military intelligence by the Ottoman admiral and cartographer Piri Reis and you can easily look up the details.
For starters “The Habb Theory” by Professor Charles Habb .I am not saying I agree with all of it but it does make sense…..and it certainly explains A LOT.
A lot of what? You do realize that the book ”The HAB Theory” is science fiction written by Allan W. Eckert in 1976. It was an interesting read; but, far from a theory.
“Fingerprints of the Gods” by Graham Hancock just echoes 19th-century writer Ignatius Donnelly, author of “Atlantis.” and IMHO falls into the same genre as most of Erich von Däniken as mostly wild conjecture.
I am quite sure he is correct but people were here long before….
Like the Norse and the Polynesians? I agree.
Habb’s Theory provides ONE explanation…
Perhaps but in a science fiction sort of way
The copper you mentioned was traded South into what we call the Carolinas and possibly into Georgia and Florida. Mainly being used in decorations and jewelry. I have not seen any metal arrowheads/spearheads or tomahawks or hatchets or axes before the Europeans came along.
I think you are correct; but, there was a vast trading network in North America. One of the richest flints around was dug at Flint Ridge east of modern day Columbus Ohio, and that flint has been found clear down with the Seminole in Florida
So now we do know for a fact The Earth has changed over the years and no doubt will go through changes in the future..Definitely someone as traveling the World long before Antarctica became the South Pole…So how long ago did that happen? Such a change would wipe out every civilization on the face of the Earth…..
Not necessarily, keeping in mind that while the pole shift appears to be real, it is more likely a shift of the magnetic poles and not the physical. We know that the magnetic field ebbs & flows and is already slowly migrating due to changes in the molten iron core of the planet. Here is some more detailed information.
Earth’s Magnetic North Pole Has Shifted So Much We’ve Had to Update GPS
https://www.sciencealert.com/navigation-systems-finally-caught-up-with-the-mysteriously-north-pole-shift
The Ohio Prepper
I am most glad you have been able to disregard actual evidence of History and the copy of the Piri Reis map. You are more than welcome and are most cordially invited to explain how those people in 1513 KNEW the land mass of Antarctica and then PLEASE feel free to explain HOW those people in 1513 KNEW Antarctica was once green and inhabited with Humans and other critters!
The Professor’s name was HABB…..CHARLES HABB.
Try reading his book sometime if it is not too far above your reading level………
As for the rest of your rant…..IF you paid good money for a formal education….demand a refund…..you got ripped off.
Back up all of your claims since you would have me/us believe hat he Piri Reis map was created by an Ottoman Admiral that could not have any idea of Antarctica being a land mass and being lush and green and having a human population along with other critters…So let us start with that
I have NEVER heard any hint of evidence the Ottoman Admiral said HE created the map… But since you are so smart and know it all
OH YEAH……………Who made the maps Columbus used? WHEN were the originals made and who made those?
Thank you for…………
Be sure to watch out for those Gravity Storms!
Yo como no, ‘mano? Who ya talking to? I disagree. You’re not Hispanic, but Native American. Hispanic was a designation by dems to stop Mexicans from crossing the border, as the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo allowed. Native Americans can still cross the border by showing their status as to border guards. Spanish, no. Surnames were forced on people to make it easier for governments to tax and to track us. Instead of Farmer John, he became John Farmer, John the Forester became John Forest. If anyone dared to protest, he quickly became John Doe. BTW, Schwarzenegger means Black Person. Our ancestors took the name of the family clan, from our mothers.
I live one-hundred-sixty kilometers from Mexico. Travel another one-hundred-sixty south and you find my ex-wife’s people, the Raramuri. I almost moved down her way, but came home to Arizona, instead. In Mexico, I’m a mestizo, it’s safer than being a Native American with the PRI ruining lives there. In the East, I’m white (non-Caucasian). Here, I’m ani sosos kanona:i. But, hang out at pow wows and so on. On a rez, I’m Native American.
Mexico is tribal, no other word for it. So is all of Europe and Asia. Only in the Americas do all races get along, so long as European tribalism isn’t running things, as it does under socialists. In the UK, the main thing folks want to know is your tribe. Saxon? Anglo? Celtic? If Celtic, which tribe? Norman? Europe is that way. My father’s second wife was Austrian (Die Dame war Österreicherin, but not related to Arnold Schwarzenegger, unfortunately 🙂 and by the end of the war, the Austrians hated Germany and hated Hitler for the way Germans treated them, like mountain savages. Austrians and most Alpen volk are Celtic.
Who says ‘skins are few and far between? Go to Oklahoma. For that matter, any state in the Appalachian Mtns. Most Southerners are very proud of their Native American ancestry, whites and blacks alike. If you want bigotry from white, go to the DNC. We don’t make good pets, and no Taino I ever met liked dems much because they refuse to be their little brown brothers, like African Americans are. Blacks, no. Blacks pow wow.
There are millions of Native Americans today, far more than before. It’s been a while since color was a racial issue among us. Yeah, you find apples who get bitter about race. Those who play the skin game, but the majority of us ignore them as we always have. For that matter, old troubles between our nations are fading thanks to the contempt of the DNC and PRI. Tohono, Hopi, and Apache go to the same pow wows as friends. They intermarry, and the man goes to live with his wife’s people. Today, when someone mentions Mohawk, Pawnee, Aztec, or Choc, no one reaches for a baseball bat.
The Azetc were run out of the north because they practiced witchcraft. Their enemies in Mexico called them meshica (Spanish spelled it mexica), though they called themselves the Tenocha, the Eagle People–ha! They’re the last of a long line of Chichimec to go to Mexico, during the Great Drought, which lasted over a century.
Alcoholism is a medicinal all people suffering soul rape use. Any soldier can tell you that. When the Aztec came to Mexico, they found tequila and mescal, plenty of beer and wine. Anthropologists still wonder why them ‘skins tried to store berries and green corn (unripe sweet corn) in all those demijohns (a jug that holds 3 gallons, mas or menos). Didn’t those silly injuns know it would only rot? Mash a jug of berries in the jug. Pour boiling water over that. Seal, bury for a few months and you have wine, which prevents scurvy. It’s that or ‘reindeer salad’. Spruce buds hold a lot of Vitamin C, but can caused spontaneous abortion, so women avoided it. When the dark face of winter was on us, the old women had the men haul beer and wine to mountaintops. There, the water froze out of it and elders made merry their days. Elders, not anyone under 40. We invented sour mash (made of green corn), something popular around the world. We developed varieties of maize that can make their own nitrogen, as legumes do. No other grass does that, but ours can.
My first time in college (early 70s) I was ridiculed for being so military. Then, when one proff started his “I’m a communist because of what happened to the poor Indian,” I told him, politely, it was Pennsylvania and politicians there are death on us, and he flunked me, though I had a 3.0 grade average. BTW, Penn State (AKA P-U and Rape U) told me I had better not make trouble for him. Before our war with Sadam Insane, PU sold him incubators and a virulent strain of the Bubonic Plague, and possibly other plagues. A allergist from Syria told me his mother watched each night for a week as trucks rolled over the border to Syria and left empty. Iran also was to get Sadam’s goodies.
Mexico is the Tierra Hermosa because it is, when you stay away from turf the drug lords carved out. Internet service in Mexico is good. It’s not cheap, but you pay once and as long as the computer is on-line, you never pay again. Carlos Slim did that. No wonder he’s one of the wealthiest men in the world. Mexico is as young as a new-hatched fledgling and older than time. Elders are respected, not forced by the government to homes to die alone and lonely. Traditionals here do not make bones much over the past, but teach to ignore the ‘college injuns’ and plastic shamen who do. But, pretty much all traditionals are armed to the teeth, too. You never know what crap the neolibs will do nest to make you the latest ‘good injun.’ Cuban Taino tell me some day America will remember her friends and again free them from slavery. Keep in touch! Your posts are always interesting. Walk in beauty.
You are so cute and all that, and you sometimes say very intelligent things but, come again? “You’re not Hispanic, but Native American” First, the term is First Nation. “Hispanic was a designation by dems to stop Mexicans from crossing the border”. Second based on the terms, Mexicans fall under LATINOS, as in people from Latin America, which makes zero sense, since no one speaks Latin. Hispanics are people whose ancestors came mainly from HISPANIA, the name the ROMANS gave the IBERIAN peninsula. Notice Hispania and Hispanic? Oh, wow they are spelled the same asides from the a being replaced by a c. I am Hispanic because most of my ancestors came from Hispania (technically half did but we took in the Irish hostages/slaves of the British, so they can be included as part of us, being they adopted our little islands and language). I don’t have any ancestors from south of the border, same as most other Hispanics. Don’t get the terms confused. As to the “Cuban” Tainos, Tainos are the people who were here before the Europeans, Cuba is ONLY one of the islands they inhabited. Guess what baby, somehow the legends are happening. We now have definite proof that the Tainos wrote in ANCIENT HEBREW. Evidence discovered in among other places, in the caves in the Isla de Mona, which belongs to PR, and real (vs the fake) Rabbis have identified them as being descendants of the tribe of Ephraim, one of the “two sticks” mention by the prophet Ezekiel in the Old Testament. Some day, we will free ourselves, which is why some people want us gone. One drop of Taino blood, always Taino. And being that Jewish people bloodlines come from the female side (strange I know), that means people like me. Remember the saying “it ain’t over til the fat lady sings”. Oh, you, of little faith. Did I mention I’m into history, even very ancient. Like I said: Why sterilize the women?, as Billy Clinton mentioned. By the way, there is also evidence in the Americas, of the fact that at least some of the people also wrote in Ancient Hebrew. Therefore some are also members of the various “Lost Tribes”. Wow, I’m teaching you a lot. No charge, I like to share the truth. I’ve only been doing research for the last 52 years or so. Educating Red, I call it. lol (You are a depository of fake history, dear child, along with some real.) At least you try!
Ya, I bet the officers thought you were cute, too, at least when bent over 🙂 Latino is correct, also, because Spanish is a dialect of Latin, but no American nation is Spanish; each has their own culture and even their own dialect. So is Central American, because it used to be one nation. If I call Maria a hispanic, I better sleep with the mule and goats for a few nights. And even then wonder if I’ll wake up in the stables or trying to convince St. Peter I do have a right to enter Heaven. I always did like exciting women. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/04/nyregion/more-hispanics-in-us-calling-themselves-indian.html
Nope, Hispania is Spanish, not American. That was a Klan law, working hand in glove with the PRI in Mexico during the Cristero war. Note, it’s a made-up term because dem states all changed the status of folks south of the border, and the Dominicans, to Spanish. Look up how blacks broke through the race barrier in sports. They changed their names and called themselves Spanish, not the new neolib term, Hispanic.
Yeah, Rome enslaved the native people in Iberia. And? They did it to everybody. Slaves, not citizens (AKA taxpayers). Not Romans, but still had their own culture when the Berbers enslaved them. And the Basque retreated to the mountains and kicked the Romans, and then the Berber out of their country.
I met a lot of Taino from la Republica Dominicana, Belize, have family that married Tainos in Puerto Rico. Know some Taino from Columbia and Venezuela under different names, but same basic customs and language. And, it was the Dominican Republic/Hispanola where Columbus met his first local folks, the Tainos. http://www.tainogallery.com/history/
The Irish never took hostages. Folks who descend from survivors of the Armada in Ireland are called black Irish, for some reason.
According to Taino history, the Taino were Arawak, not Hebrew and existed before Moses married colored, so to speak. Columbus was the one who claimed we were the Lost Ten tribes of Israel. The pope then commanded all slavers stop harassing us with very few exceptions. The liberals then twisted the law and it continued, but a lot of slavers were excommunicated for it.
Were the Jews in the Americas? So far as anyone knows, yes. But, they came in after the Diaspora, not before it. https://www.nytimes.com/1992/07/07/science/case-for-other-pre-columbian-voyagers.html When Rome destroyed the nations of Judah and Israel, people scattered. A lot of them ran south to Sheba, a Jewish nation, where out of fear of Rome, they were sent to Ethiopia, another Jewish nation. From there, they scattered across Africa. Israel recognizes Lemba as Levites because DNA testing shows it. When DNA testing started, anyone with some injun in them went to be tested. It all came back Germanic/Asiatic. Even full bloods, same. Germanic. Jewish bloodlines are paternal, not maternal. It was Roman Jews who started that thing about maternal lines because they were so raped and overrun, no one could say who was the kid’s father. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ask-the-expert-matrilineal-descent/ oi, vey, vat a shmeer! 🙂 And, never forget, by profession I was trained in manuscript research. Worse, one sister is a historian. Even worse, my mother claimed she was complimenting her sons by calling us sons-of-b’s.
Lost Tribes of Israel: Dan, Ethiopia. Judah, Ethiopia, Yemen, all of N. Africa and Europe. Asher, India. Levi, Africa. Benjamin, Ethiopia. Israel was divided in two nations, Judah and Samaria. When Rome attacked Judah, Samaria attacked Rome. The people were scattered as slaves all over the Empire.
BTW, I could charge you 65 bucks a page for this lesson, and there are those who would pay it. I still get calls from Publishers Roe, Manhattan, asking when I’m coming home. Nope, am home. Profession, not armature, manuscript researcher, editor, writer, all around good guy, close to virulent anti-neolob. Oh, yeah, hot lover and aging grampa. Hasta, chico. Again: Stop bending over in front of officers! 🙂
Talk about nonsense. Hispania is a location, in the map, now known as the Iberian peninsula. Spanish is a language and Spain a nation. Latino is a name first used by a Frenchman while writing about the Spanish speaking people of the Americas, which the US then adopted. So the people who would fall under the category Latinos are the ones so named by the US. I am Hispanic because of my ancestors who came from the region call Hispania. Is that too complicated for you? Italians whose language came from the area where LATIN was spoken are not Hispanics because they don’t come from Hispania. Not all people in the Americas were descendants of the people of Judah but some where, and they are fully aware of it, for a long time. The evidence was found, the various theories were wrong and the name Arawak another name for people who were here first. Who by the way no one knew where they came from. Cuba the only one inhabited? The sacred mountain of the Tainos is and was in PR. They lived in Cuba, what is now the Dominican Republic/Haiti and PR. As to your list your are confusing the Lost Tribes with the nations that some of them were from. Like I said read the Old Testament and find out about the “two sticks”. I’m spent a lifetime research and you are inventing “fact”. By the way, what I said was that the IRISH were hostages/slaves. Because in the 1500’s the British were taking the second sons of the Irish prisoners to make sure their parents behaved. “I was trained in manuscript research.” what the for television version of the Bible? All the nonsense you post and you really think I believe that you have even seen an actual historic manuscript in your entire life. Sorry buddy, go try to fool some one else. You have no idea of what the heck you are talking about, if you did, that would have come out the first time I questioned you. By the way, you are mentioning the German people, does that mean you understood what I wrote in German? In this same thread? Yep, manuscript guy thinks the New York Times falls under manuscript.
Nope. The whole Iberian Peninsula was Hispania. Portuguese are called Hispanic. So are folks in the Canary Islands, though most claim to be as Celtic as the Spanish were.
Nope, you haven’t confused me yet. You want to be known by an Italian name, so be it. You like being designated as non-Native American, that’s up to you. But, thousands are rejecting being called by a foreign name and demand their rights to be Native Americans/indígena. Mexicans are up in arms against the Hispanic, leftist government, calling them foreigners. If someone decorates their car with a flag not of the US, that’s their thing. You use an American flag, and when one of those with foreign flags sneers, I look at their flag and tell them they’re acting like an ass.
No one, not a single person I ever met, and I lived in most of the lwer 48, pow wowed with the loval folks, studied their history, listened to their creation stories and so on has ever claimed to be from the Tribe of Judah. Nor has any one of us who have had DNA testing done found anything resembling DNA from any of the 12 tribes. One exception, unless they can point back to a Jew who intermarried with their ancestors. Case in point, Muncy Lenape. They became a separate clan but that was because the men married Jewish women. BTW, when you see an old cartoon of a ‘skin with a big nose, the character is based on Muncy, Big Nose. Neolibs did it to mock. Again, our DNA has no sign of Abraham. If it were at all common, it would show.
I showed you work in progress from an anthropologist. Tainos are Arawak. That’s what anthros are saying based on DNA and what Tainos in Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, and South America tell them. In Belize, Taino call themselves Garifuna, and my sister-in-law is registered as that. I don’t argue about it because she’s a fine lawyer. Geezis, bro, the Kikapu in Mexico and Kickapoo in the States are related to the Arawak. So are the Lenape. Researching is my profession, not a hobby. I do not do urban legend or even much of Wikipedia.
Manuscript research is a profession. It comes out of Library Science. I had to go back to college for it. I was one of the top in the profession. If I made mistakes, I wouldn’t have been. The English did not sell hostages on the auction block. They did sell Irish and Scots, and to some extent, Welsh.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076
New flash, each NYT article starts out as a manuscript. Then, as Heinlein put it, the copy editor takes a leak all over it, tastes it, and if it is now well-seasoned, he allows it to go to the next level of editors. NYT AKA the grand old lady of yellow journalism. Journalism is writing. I do not edit copy. My job is make certain the manuscript editor is happy with facts–this includes a lot of history, ancient and recent, such as editing for an anthropologist on the Rahrahmuri. 1st level editors do not play well with others. They tend to buy antacids by the gallon and still don’t feel happy until they ‘kill’ something first thing in the morning.
Stepmother made captain in the SS. Mother-in-law made sergeant in the SS. Several aunts were in the Jungen. I have family in Germany. The Germans coming to the colony of Penn’s Woods thought we were part of the Lost Ten Tribes. They married among us. Messianic Jews coming over married among us. We spoke Dietsch at home, nicks die auf Deutschland. Mountain German is close to her German, Austrian. You need to get to the Brooklyn Library and learn there. I used to go at least once a week when working out of Manhattan. Hawa? I do not do urban legend. I do not listen to fanatics. I look for truth. Fact is how I made a living. illchay ithway ethay alsefay idepray. itway ashay onay aceplay
onway isthay orumfay. Iway on’tday ogay aroundway insultingway ouyay, utbay ouyay ewblay offway ouryay optay atway emay. chill with the false pride. it has no place on this forum. I don’t go around insulting you, but you blew off your top at me. People want to hear about you, what you’re doing, how it’s working for you. Not claiming we’re a bunch of bigots. What would your mother say? If she were like mine, you’d get the I brought you into this world speech.
Red,,
The Azetc were run out of the north because they practiced witchcraft.
This caught my attention because too often witchcraftis portrayed as worship of Satan or other ”evil” entities. This portrayal comes from the early universal (Roman Catholic) church that did not like the competition with their brand of magic.
In German Weis Craft, Wise Craft or Craft of the Wise was the description of those who knew herbal medicine and how to use medicinal plants to heal ailments. They could diagnose and often successfully treat wounds, long before the advent of ”modern medicine”
Before our war with Sadam Insane, PU sold him incubators and a virulent strain of the Bubonic Plague, and possibly other plagues. A allergist from Syria told me his mother watched each night for a week as trucks rolled over the border to Syria and left empty. Iran also was to get Sadam’s goodies.
These were the WMD’s that were not there after the invasion that Bush took the hit for, even though many intelligence agencies knew that they had been there.
Politics as usual still causes us problems.
Does anyone actually trust the likes of Merkel and Macron to take their Blue Helmets and leave behind the natural resources, farm production and industrial manufacturing they recovered in the US?
The US would be fighting for its independence and freedom from Day One the first Blue Helmet planted boots …
I doubt that many country’s will reach out in that scenario. The country’s that did before were most likely doing it to curry favor not because they gave a damn about the USA. You also need to put into the equation what other country’s like Russia and China will do without the worry of the USA stepping in if they decide to just start taking other country’s over. I think the rest of the world will have their own problems to deal with.
Other Countries would move in to take advantage and yes try to take over. Of course that is not discussed. China, Cuba, Russia. They’ll all show up but not for help.
If they do show up, it’ll be after hordes of warm bodies from Indonesia and North Africa are sent in to ‘soften’ us.Why do you think the ‘Arab Spring’ was so important to the Dems? They did their best to replace any Muslim leader who was either a friend to the US, or afraid to fight us. They blew it with Benghazi, but came right back wit the lame excuse of refugees. And, what happened? the terrorists are busy here and in Europe killing off the very supporters neolibs depend on, atheists, actors, and gays. Even Harris was touting Trump, and Harris hats conservative. But, he does have a good sense of self-preservation.
Boogieman Cuba? Seriously? Let see, compared to the US, it’s the size of a mosquito. The population is 11,490,000 vs the US’s 328,894,358. They had to go full force organic because they couldn’t get fertilizers or farming equipment, thanks to the US. Most of their cars are from when I was a child and I’m 72. Hint, it was the US that financed Fidel Castro because they were too stupid to figure out he was a true believer, although his best friend was El Che, famous for being a communist, just because Fidel’s family was upper middle class.Hint: propaganda. I would worry more about our “best friend” not going to mention who, because I am not STUPID. They have a temper. By the way, I knew that Fidel was who he was and I was only 12. The CIA should have asked me.
Yeah cuba has better food. Unlike here which basically we destroyed the top soil and now have wonderful GMOs.
Carmen, yo, but pappy, Cuba has top-notch eco-terrorism scientists.If anyone doubts the possibility, Cuba’s 5th largest export is pharmaceuticals (not counting other, ah, things 🙂 Family are still whispering about Bird Flu, that it came in with flocks heading north from Cuba.It was proved generations ago birds could carry most of the plagues and not die from them. this has been discussed by USAMRIID and the CDC. With eco-terrorism, you don’t need a great deal of investments to wipe out massive segments of population, crops, or livestock. If china, say, did make swine flu to kill off dissidents, then call it ironic justice that now most of the herds of pigs are infected. Remember what was done to our ancestors, and that was by accident. niio
Yo, but, Red mami, since when is Carmen a male name? Get real, the top exporter of pharma to the US is CHINA. Cuba doesn’t even register in our radar. Hint to be effective they have to GET IN. Hint, bird flu was in China first. Where do you get your data from? The same people who put Fidel in power? That makes sense in tiny minds. Nice you mentioned pigs, who processes the most pigs and then sends that to us via Walmart? Hint, mijo, it’s not even remotely Cuba. What was done to whose ancestors? You mean the 34% of all Puerto Rican women who were sterilized without their knowledge, by 1970, that Bill Clinton apologized about when he was president. That included my mother, lucky I was born before the program began. That was zero accident. I bet they were trying to prevent me from being born. Yet, we are the largest group in the entire US of A, in terms of percentage of the population in the US military (women and men included). Army brat here, my grandson is Air Force brat. My dad join when he was 16 with a written permission by his mother. Try history, papi. I have no idea what you mean about “being done to our ancestors.” Lets see, are you talking Cristobal Colon, who “exterminated” people without ever setting foot in either North and South America EVER and who according to the US exterminated the Tainos. Get this papi, there are still plenty of Tainos left and if you were not informed, just about every PR tested showed Taino DNA, me included. Or maybe you are talking the British and their ancestors, but since I’m from the Caribbean, my ancestors were NOT included. We did give sanctuary to their Irish hostages/slaves. That’s how I got my Irish 43% DNA. History, nene, history.
Why moringia? Here, it’s a perennial, but we could take cuttings and root them if we had to. It roots easy. If I may, how about mulberry trees? Fruit, and the leaves are used by Asians as food.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/so-you-want-to-eat-a-tree
I would take this article tongue in cheek. Most of the leaves they mention are fine, but somethings can do harm in quantity. BTW, Mohawks will be surprised to find their mountains, the Ad-iron-dac means tree eaters. I was always told, Where Iron is found, because they used to mine it there. 🙂
The Castro family held a minor baron in Spain. Franco fiefed Cuba to him, so I hear, backing Castro’s revolt against the Cuban people.BTW, Cuba no longer exports pork, but is now importing it, tho they had herds of pigs in every patch of woods. Pigs can die of every disease known to humanity. niio
“our neighboring countries might not be able to help”? Are you serious? There is not one country on the planet that would help the U.S.
Did they help out after Katrina? Sandy?, the wildfires in California?, the midwest floods in 1993?
NO
They tried to help after the two massive and unprecedented hurricanes, in a row, that hit Puerto Rico and Homeland Security refused to allow any foreign ship to dock there, in spite the terrible destruction. Heck HS even refused to allowed the US Navy hospital ship to dock, until the Navy decided to first open one of the docks on their own, that HS had refused to open, as well as dock the ship. For those of you still in complete ignorance, we have been US CITIZENS FROM BIRTH for the last 103 years. One hundred and three years in case you missed the number. And every one who was already alive before that was made a US citizen at the same time.
CamenO
I will say this the harbor/port had to be cleared before the ships could safely enter. Maybe it sounds like a crock of crap or maybe people think it took too long……even the piers had to be inspected for damage.
Also equipment had to be in place and working order to unload the ships and to distribute it.
I am not defending what was done to P.R. at all. Nor am I attacking you. Every such incident s a learning experience..Mistakes are made and do happen..they are to be learned from and corrections made so they do not happen the net time. One an learn from simulations but hen it becomes realty is a whole new game..
I am just saying it would do no good to have a shipload of supplies strike something and sink causing further delays or to have a pier collapse and losing the cranes and supplies and possibly human lives.
The runways had to be cleared as well….for obvious reasons…..
Communications or the lack there of were another biggie.
I have not been monitoring the current situation in P.R. but before the Hurricane hit P.R. was having major economic and infrastructure issues due to corrupt politicians.
Most of the Professionals had left or were planning on leaving…
I am sure there is still suffering going on I can only Hope and Pray that such suffering is soon over and their lives can get back to hat passes for normal…or possibly better for them.
Teri: I did tell you. I did read Ex. 21. I also read quite a bit more than you, because the law protected slaves from their owners. In the law of Moses, you had to be in bad shape financially to sell yourself into slavery. That was their welfare system. Jesus said: https://www.openbible.info/topics/forgiveness_of_debt
What god said about slavery:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-wrong-say-bible-pro-slavery/
Jesus also put women above men in importance.
https://biblehub.com/luke/8-21.htm Until very recently, any child who was bad, I mean very bad, criminal, could be killed by his parents. Jesus said in verse 20, any woman who follows me is as my own mother (has that right over me, over any man). Your culture stole that from women. Mine never did, as an uncle could have told you after my grandmother broke a baseball bat over his back. Your culture stole that. Male atheists are called untrustworthy by female atheists because they’re very misogamist. If you want to get plenty of strong anti-Christian quotes, go to https://conservativecolloquium.wordpress.com/2008/12/14/hitlers-war-on-christianity-quotes/
On evolution and the blind faith needed to follow: Apparently, some evolutionists decided to test the creationist theory on fossilization and ‘discovered’ they could make new fossils, just like YEC always said.
Hey folks. Issues of having a conniption about religion is that most people do not have a strong knowledge of human history and religion.
1) The 10 Commandments were a small handful of rules that were intended to keep people in line. However, the Mosaic Laws listed in the “Old Testament” allowed behaviors that would not be tolerated today. For example, rape was punished by forcing the man who did the rape to marry the woman without any chance for divorce. Today that would be an unthinkable way to address rape.
2) Christianity does NOT support slavery. In fact, it was religious people who started the abolition movement to begin with – specifically it was the Quakers. Also, Romans 1 makes a clear statement “Slave Mongering is an abomination in the Eyes of the Lord… … deserving not only death which is of the body but also the second death which is death of the soul.”
It is an interesting line of study to be sure, but many people who get extreme in responding to people of either religious or anti-religious movements are usually the people who have the least understanding of the truth either way.
Vstar, I gave you a thumbs up because it’s a good post. But, the rapist had two other options, he could pay her a sum of money (making her independently wealthy), or be stoned to death for adultery and rape. Yeah, you ever seen a Jewish babe go after her hubby when she’s breathing fire? He leaves, fast. And no one laughs at him for it. Least of all us indigenous folks. 🙂 Pity the rapist, he was an idiot. thumbs up!
The Vikings made it at least as far South as North Carolina and inland into Minnesota and into Oklahoma. There are (or were) stories told by the tribal people in the area what is now around Tennessee of Giants with Red hair…
I don’t the think Vikings were as much of Barbarians/Conquerors in North America as they were proclaimed to be in Europe and were more of explorers.
In Europe the Vikings would sail into whatever city ports and get a ransom or a pay off to go away and leave the city alone…There was no such organization of people and cities or ports North America. Also the Indigenous People did not mine or practice metallurgy….had no use for gold or other precious metals so nothing take from them accept perhaps knowledge of the land or perhaps animal hides or such,
There are what appears to be Aztec settlements in Minnesota and possibly one in Georgia.
There are ancient stone carvings with African features in South America.
Also in S.America. there are ancient statues of men with beards/facial hair carved by people that had none and believed in a man with a long beard in flowing White robes that taught them things and gave them knowledge. That left them headed out to sea vowing to return.
The Spaniards showed up around the time they had predicted he was suppose to return.
To the indigenous people the Spaniards were White and the definitely had facial hair.
By the time the Indigs figured the Spaniards were not Him, it was far too late.
There is a theory that when Cain killed Able and was cast out to find a Wife that he and others wound up in South America. The Mark of Cain is thought to be the lack of beards/facial hair.
For anyone interested in strange things of possible Earth History check out “The Habb Theory”.
I can also recommend several books if anyone is interested including the one listed above “The Habb Theory”
LCC and anyone else interested in The Event of 1859.
1859’s “Great Auroral Storm”—the week the Sun touched the earth
You can also download the original in PDF
Accounts of the largest electromagnetic storm ever recorded.
MATTHEW LASAR – 5/2/2012, 9:00 PM
https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/05/1859s-great-auroral-stormthe-week-the-sun-touched-the-earth/
Don’t count on other Countries helping us out. China and Mexico won’t. Most won’t. Each one of us must prepared to take care of ourselves.
Mexico is getting dependent on computers, and so far as I hear, no protection. China is in the middle of a major depression that only massive amounts of cash flow into the system is keeping afloat. Like FDR and the Great Depression, a war would help out their economy. It did for them when we were in Korea, and Vietnam. Putin is honest about who he backs and who he won’t. China still believes it’s made to order owner of the world.the only good point is every province seems to be set to make civil war, and some of the provinces internal strife is building. China has been trying to rein in Christians and Muslims, and failing. they need a war to take dissidents off the streets with few people around to protest. Russia, as I understand it, has beefed up security along their border, and Siberia has, as well. niio
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